Aloha:
First of all I would like to say how proud I am with so many of you here! The post by JB “When to do you throw in the towel” http://baselineforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=254210 is what I am referring to. So many of you encouraged him, guided him and many simple said don’t give up! As a non surveyor we are depended on experts like you to help. When you throw in the towel, we have nobody else to go! Yes, please never ever give up! I don’t post very much but read almost every thread related to Land Surveying. Not a PLS but love land surveying and always admired wide variety of views offered here to solve any one surveying challenges posted on the site.
Short story…
Several years ago hired a PLS…he happened to what I learn later to be “deed staker.” PLS never came to the site! All communication was done through his instrument man. Paid good amount of money but boundary lines were all over the place. Long story short the PLS pretty much refused to fix some of the obvious errors when pointed out to him.
Then hired PLS #2. After initial work he admitted it is too much for him. He was kind enough to refer me to PLS #3 that he thought familiar with area and trustworthy. He did not want to accept any payment for his initial work. Gave him a topography work for a construction site in return for his kindness.
My PLS #3 apparently a well reputed surveyor and very familiar with my area. I had a meeting with PLS #3 and explained the predicament. He told me it might cost me over 10K to solve this. Having already spent half the amount previously I was a bit shocked. At this time a wise surveyor from Alaska who post frequently here told me “Survey is like digging a well. You don’t how deep you need to dig until you find the water!” After convincing the higher ups I hired him to started the job. His crew came and did two days of field work—gathering evidence etc. Then he had to do a lot office work. It took him about six month to finally to stake the property which his crew finished couple days ago. I think he was pretty busy. He promised to use best acceptable practices to do the necessary adjustments. He had to survey the neighborhood to find more evident hence the extra cost. At that point I know he is my PLS! Thanks to this forum to help me to make that conclusion!
Back to the present...
Next week I have a meeting scheduled with PLS #3. He wants to explain what he had done. I noticed he didn’t hold few of the pipes his crew found. Two of the property corner pipes were about 0.9’ away from the old pipes that were set in the 50s and 80s. I am sure he has explanation for this. As far as I know, Hawaii is not a recording state. Can you still have it recorded? Anything else anyone of you would suggest I do? What kind information I should ask my PLS to provide for future references? How can I help to prevent this type of issue in the future when another surveyor have to work on our parcels let say 50 or 60 years from now?
Thank you so much!
First of all, I would like to quote a friend of mine: well of course you have a lot of readers, you have a yswami over there....
> Back to the present...
> Next week I have a meeting scheduled with PLS #3. He wants to explain what he had done. I noticed he didn’t hold few of the pipes his crew found. Two of the property corner pipes were about 0.9’ away from the old pipes that were set in the 50s and 80s. I am sure he has explanation for this.
It looks like you have a Bona Fide surveyor; I met a few surveyors from your state at ACSM conferences in the past, it sounds like you may have too.
> As far as I know, Hawaii is not a recording state. Can you still have it recorded?
In my state, you can record anything you want; is that right?
My opinion is: the only responsibility is to thy self...
> Anything else anyone of you would suggest I do?
No matter what happens, you own what your deed says you own.
One of those surveyors from Texas said: you have 3 lines; a deed line; a line of occupation and the line of ownership. Forgive me for not remembering who it was.....
If I set your corners, then all I am doing is showing you my reference to what I think your boundary's are. Now, my opinion is based on being a licensed surveyor in your state, but it is still only an opinion. You can sue me, if you think I am wrong: as a professional, I should have just cause, as to my reaction.
> Thank you so much!
Doesn't that go without saying?
I love you yswami and I hope you have a great day!
Aloha, Doug: Thanks for your input! I wonder who is this friend? 😉
> > Anything else anyone of you would suggest I do?
> No matter what happens, you own what your deed says you own.
> One of those surveyors from Texas said: you have 3 lines; a deed line; a line of occupation and the line of ownership. Forgive me for not remembering who it was.....
>
What is the difference between line of occupation and the line of ownership?
>
> > Thank you so much!
>
> Doesn't that go without saying?
> I love you yswami and I hope you have a great day!
Same to you Doug!
P.S. Gratitude and love are always good to be expressed verbally! 🙂
“Survey is like digging a well. You don’t how deep you need to dig until you find the water!”
I'm gonna use that one.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Nate
Line of occupation is where you have permanent improvements (fences, etc.) at, and line of ownership is what you legally own to.
the Ownership is like "truth" and the other two are like written or physical evidence of what the truth is. The surveyor should be an expert as to helping you figure out the truth, but another surveyor or the courts may disagree with what your expert says.
Sorry if my analogies aren't perfect. Just trying to paint a picture of what that definition means to me.
In court, I use 2 terms.
1.) Record Title
2.) Occupation.
Definitions:
Record Title:
Where the deeds say the line is. Jr Sr Rights have been accounted for, and resolved. Mis-Closure of deeds and all has been resolved.
This is the condensed opinion of the total of the records, at the courthouse.
Occupation:
Whatever the physical evidence says. It can be monuments, it can be mowing lines, it can be fences, walls, roads etc.
A professional survey has looked at all the evidence, found a sound reason to do something, and documented it.
I don't like it when a surveyor jumps on a simple solution, to a complex problem.
N
> As far as I know, Hawaii is not a recording state. Can you still have it recorded?
You can record anything you want at a County Clerk's office as long as you are willing to pay the recording fee. Texas is not a recording state but I recall one surveyor in Montague County that would record all of his surveys and it sure came in handy at times when surveying in that area.
Cy
Yoginatha,
I can't speak for Hawaii, but Georgia is a non-recording state but we do have plat books that most plats end up being recorded in. I always strongly encourage my clients to record their plats or be sure their attorney does. We rarely record plats for our clients. We offer to and will if asked but the attorneys usually take care of it. That's really best since they may want a middle initial or a different entity named on the plat. Its better to have those minor changes made first or we end up with multiple plats recorded. Please perpetuate the survey by maintaining your property corners and lines. Take care to protect the monuments from accidental destruction. Also, I would suggest marking the lines. Ask your surveyor what the common methods for marking lines in your area are. Here most hack and/or paint trees along the lines that are in the woods. Steel fence posts or fences on line are used in open areas. In more urban areas it may be planting shrubs or plants. The surveyor has done his job, now the landowner must do his by continued maintenance. Have a wonderful day, my friend. Please let me know how your mapping is going
You know, I have heard of recording survey plats before and have wondered what the real advantage of doing that might be. But the more I think about it, it seems like it would mean more than just having your results available to other surveyors. It is putting the public on notice of what the client is using as his boundary. I would think that your survey would ripen into the legal boundary (mistakes, arguable results and professional opinions and all). If no one protests your plat, it might constitute acquiescence or some other legal principles accordingly....
I don't know, but recording your plats with the public records might be a good idea.
In our state, we are required to "deposit" our survey plats with the county surveyor's office (Or an appointee) and everyone has access to them; but recording takes on a different connotation, a different recording no., and might have more strength on the landowner's behalf, I am thinking.
> Line of occupation is where you have permanent improvements (fences, etc.) at, and line of ownership is what you legally own to.
>
> the Ownership is like "truth" and the other two are like written or physical evidence of what the truth is. The surveyor should be an expert as to helping you figure out the truth, but another surveyor or the courts may disagree with what your expert says.
>
> Sorry if my analogies aren't perfect. Just trying to paint a picture of what that definition means to me.
Aloha, Tom: this is a good analogy! So ownership is same as deed line right? I think that is what got me confused. Radar listed three different lines...
> In court, I use 2 terms.
>
> 1.) Record Title
>
> 2.) Occupation.
>
> Definitions:
>
> Record Title:
> Where the deeds say the line is. Jr Sr Rights have been accounted for, and resolved. Mis-Closure of deeds and all has been resolved.
> This is the condensed opinion of the total of the records, at the courthouse.
>
>
> Occupation:
> Whatever the physical evidence says. It can be monuments, it can be mowing lines, it can be fences, walls, roads etc.
>
> A professional survey has looked at all the evidence, found a sound reason to do something, and documented it.
>
> I don't like it when a surveyor jumps on a simple solution, to a complex problem.
>
> N
Thanks Nate!
Btw, I like your signature from the day I saw it. "Surveying is more than a Job----it is a passion to provide a foundation for future generation, that is beyond reproach."
It contributed significantly to my desire to preserve all the monuments that are being reestablished by my PLS. I hope and pray that no future monks of our monastery have go through the same headache we had gone through so far!
> > As far as I know, Hawaii is not a recording state. Can you still have it recorded?
>
> You can record anything you want at a County Clerk's office as long as you are willing to pay the recording fee. Texas is not a recording state but I recall one surveyor in Montague County that would record all of his surveys and it sure came in handy at times when surveying in that area.
>
> Cy
Aloha, Cyril:
Thanks for the thoughts! Will definitely look into this with help of my PLS.
> Yoginatha,
> I can't speak for Hawaii, but Georgia is a non-recording state but we do have plat books that most plats end up being recorded in. I always strongly encourage my clients to record their plats or be sure their attorney does. We rarely record plats for our clients. We offer to and will if asked but the attorneys usually take care of it. That's really best since they may want a middle initial or a different entity named on the plat. Its better to have those minor changes made first or we end up with multiple plats recorded. Please perpetuate the survey by maintaining your property corners and lines. Take care to protect the monuments from accidental destruction. Also, I would suggest marking the lines. Ask your surveyor what the common methods for marking lines in your area are. Here most hack and/or paint trees along the lines that are in the woods. Steel fence posts or fences on line are used in open areas. In more urban areas it may be planting shrubs or plants. The surveyor has done his job, now the landowner must do his by continued maintenance. Have a wonderful day, my friend. Please let me know how your mapping is going
Aloha, Stacy: Thanks!
My PLS's crew was very helpful. They set several point on line along the longer boundary lines to help me to clear and maintain the lines. I didn't even ask them to do so.
Normally, they would set 18" long 1/2" pipe at all the corners. After I told them I want to preserve their work for the future uses. They actually installed 24" pipes. They left about 3 inches or so above ground so that I can form and pour concrete around the pipes with disturbing them. I am intending to slowly clear and fence the property lines. (Also to keep the feral pigs away!)
I haven't done much progress on mapping yet. Will keep you posted!
You have great day too my friend!
> Aloha...... So ownership is same as deed line right? I think that is what got me confused. Radar listed three different lines...
Deed and occupation should be close to the same same line, most assume that it is. When they are not, that brings into question; where is the ownership?
There are several different kinds of deeds; some hold more weight than others. basically, it all boils down to; who do you go after, when the surveyor shows up and finds a discrepancy. I'm not up on my Hawaii boundary law, so forgive me if I'm wrong. When you take possesion of the land, the title company will not provide a gaurantee of title without an accurate survey.
I hope you are having a great day Yswami, I know I am!
Dugger
> > Aloha...... So ownership is same as deed line right? I think that is what got me confused. Radar listed three different lines...
>
> Deed and occupation should be close to the same same line, most assume that it is. When they are not, that brings into question; where is the ownership?
>
> There are several different kinds of deeds; some hold more weight than others. basically, it all boils down to; who do you go after, when the surveyor shows up and finds a discrepancy. I'm not up on my Hawaii boundary law, so forgive me if I'm wrong. When you take possesion of the land, the title company will not provide a gaurantee of title without an accurate survey.
>
> I hope you are having a great day Yswami, I know I am!
>
> Dugger
Aloha, Doug: Thanks for the additional clarification. I got it.
I am having a perfect day and it is getting better:-D
> Aloha, Tom: this is a good analogy! So ownership is same as deed line right? I think that is what got me confused. Radar listed three different lines...
Hi yswami
I see you got an answer while I was composing mine. I'll post it anyway.
No, you misunderstood or I explained it poorly. The legal description might describe a line that doesn't agree with the evidence in the field. those are two of the "lines". The third is whatever is true. The description and the evidence in the field help an expert (Land Surveyor) figure out his/her opinion of what you actually own to.
The third line would be whatever you do own. The esoteric real property that, by virtue of all the evidence, establishes exactly where you own to. The legal property line, if you will. A very good surveyor would weigh all the evidence, including the legal description, all of the fences, property pins, and everything else. The better he is at his job, and the more he knows about boundaries and boundary law, the better chance he will come up with your true property lines. If s/he is good at his job, his determination might not ever be disputed by a court.
If you and you neighbor have the property line surveyed, agree to the location, and live in harmony after that....the issue pretty much is resolved right there.
Two good surveyors might even disagree with this final determination. A court might make a decision that disagrees with both surveyors. A higher court might make another determination entirely. At the point where it "stops" might be considered the true legal boundary.
