Two recent events brought this topic to mind. 3 weeks ago I was filling in at a Planning Board meeting for a joint venture colleague; 1 abutter was bull-bleep that?ÿhis survey distance on one of her lines (which wasn??t even common with the project area) was .26?? shorter than the record distance. He had both distances on the plan and identified the monument as ??leaning?, yet it still sidetracked the meeting for ?« hour, as some members bought into her argument that we were taking land, and this needed to be resolved before the project could go forward.?ÿ I finally had to break out my ??surveying string theory? speech to get things back on course.
Fast forward to yesterday, running a small boundary traverse and only around 10% of the monuments we recovered in the neighborhood are plumb & solid. These are 1-1/2? iron pipes exposed 12-30?, prime targets for plow trucks, lawn mowers and such. Already one abutter has stated ??yeah I moved that over to the hedge row, I was stick of tripping over it??.?
Leaning monuments, best practices:
When are they set at an angle per intent and the top is the corner? (either by necessity or sloppy field work)
When the monument appears to be disturbed, how do you locate and document in the field?
How is this information analyzed and applied to your boundary computations?
At what level of detail is this analyses represented on your plans and/or surveyor reports?
Lastly what field evidence (if any) do you leave for others to follow in your footsteps (replace, pincushion, reference monument, etc.)
I would expect an iron in a rock row or very rocky soil to not be plumb, and place very little reliance on it's actual position. Given other found markers it is a monument to the area of the corner and not the corner.?ÿDepending on the amount of work one wants to do a concrete monument could be set more precisely but I would not count on it.
A deed or map is a monument to a survey in it's entirety and quite often the best evidence.
Typically I locate where it enters the earth and note it's height above ground and lean in 1 of 8 directions, N NE, E etc. If the difference is considerable I also locate the top. If the top is the best fit, I would so note it.?ÿ ?ÿIf there is evidence of being struck by a snowplow or mower, it is noted as damaged and/or disturbed.
One does not stop looking when you find a tall marker, quite often it is a locator for the actual marker, flush or buried in the ground.
Paul in PA
Just to echo what Paul said, when a pipe is sticking up that much, it is probably just a marker for the actual corner. Surveyors don't typically set stuff like that.
?ÿ
But...
I retraced a 50's era survey few years ago that actually set pipes near?ÿthe corners, but not at the corners. The map had the set pipes shown (and noted that they were with red lead paint) tied to the computed corner. I guess it was less field work to set it approximately right +/- a couple feet.?ÿ
I would not be surprised if those close pipes were set in the field prior to the final analysis and no return trip was anticipated. Did you set proper corners or let the record stand?
Paul in PA
As in most topics, the answer is " it depends".?ÿ?ÿ There is (or is supposed to be) a reason we are called licensed professionals.?ÿ Licensed professionals are supposed to have the education, knowledge, and experience to properly figure out and handle most situations encountered in the performance of our duties.?ÿ?ÿ
I can't for the life of me, understand why surveyors are always looking for (or even worse, using) made up "rules" to govern every situation or problem encountered.?ÿ "I always hold the top of the pipe."?ÿ "I always hold where the pipe enters the ground".?ÿ?ÿ "I always use a micrometer and star-net to do my professional analysis for me".?ÿ "I always hold the plat/deed distance".?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ
Your professional opinion of the?ÿlocation of the corner/boundary is properly formed by?ÿgathering all the relevant evidence, properly analyzing the relevant evidence, and properly applying the appropriate laws/principles to the facts/evidence.?ÿ?ÿ
?ÿ
"...sidetracked the meeting for ?« hour, as some members bought into her argument that we were taking land, and this needed to be resolved before the project could go forward.?ÿ"?ÿ?ÿ
I actually look forward to others trying to do my job for me.?ÿ I ask?ÿif they are licensed to express opinions on the location of boundaries - how they answer that generally ends the argument.
"I actually look forward to others trying to do my job for me.?ÿ I ask?ÿif they are licensed to express opinions on the location of boundaries - how they answer that generally ends the argument."
I agree with Brian. I ask how long they have had their survey license and that generally ends the discussion.
I recently?ÿhad?ÿa debate with myself over this very subject.?ÿ Working in some very steep mountain terrain and recovering some BLM monuments set in 1957. One particular section corner I recovered was leaning downhill at?ÿ about 45 degrees and it was fairly obvious that given the steepness of?ÿthe slope the ground the monument was set in was slowly creeping down the mountain with the freeze/thaw cycles. What to do? I had a tie to it done by our DOT about a decade ago and everything else of theirs I'd checked into was within a .1', but in this case I was off by more than?ÿhalf a foot, uphill. I'm sure if I come back in another decade that rascal will be that much closer to the valley floor. A slow motion moving target. At the end of the day I had to conclude that I could not accurately ascertain where that section corner had started out it's journey in 1957, but only where it was on the day of my survey, and so documented what I did and noted that it appeared to be slowly traveling downhill.
There are a few things that can be accepted as probably a certainty and the most believable is that Surveyors set pipes and rods that are straight and as vertical as possible with the top being near ground level or flush.
I like to dig to a sufficient depth to see if the monument is bent and/or broken in the case of concrete.
I locate the top when found and in the case of mangled looking monuments will get location of the bends and finally the bottom location.
As I dig, in the case of a rod or pipe, I will give it the rotation test to see if it is still straight or bent.
A local tradition is to show the existing location at the center of where the monument rotates.
I've witnessed monuments being set in the wrong place because it could not be driven easily where it was supposed to be and not much effort was being made to get in the correct location.
Locally, most will not attempt to set monuments in concrete or rock and will set reference(s) on or along the boundaries and note that in the description. The same when they fall in a tree.
I like to rehabilitate a disturbed monument while in the field and locate the before and after.
Many times neither location is acceptable and because the rod was lying flat or nearso, I decided the monument to be disturbed to the point it is no longer in the original position and will set it in the correct place according to where the most harmony is determined.
This is one of the reasons I do not set a number for my fee as there is too much uncertainty lying in wait.
Problem with rebar.?ÿ The undisciplined pound the bar where they can get it the ground, then bend the top to fit.?ÿ All appears the same when flush, but sure makes you wonder when 6-8" is exposed.?ÿ Jp
- That is one reasong I prefer to set 1/2" rebars, if it gets hit, it usually bends and you can still find the vertical location where it originally was set, as was mentioned by A. Harris. The larger the rebar or pipe the less that works, it becomes more of a leaning affect when disturbed. GLO caps in this area are usually leaning and I locate where they enter the ground of it is a substantial lean. I don't think they cared to much about it back in the day, they were playing with feet so a leaning monument wasn't a factor.
I've pondered this through the years and I will shoot the top and bottom where it goes into the ground and try to find out which one fits best. I generally don't describe on the plat where I shot it but I will sometimes describe it as disturbed if it is obviously disturbed but that is questionable also.
A common situation here on large tracts way back in the woods is a 1" pipe set in the ground with about a 1 or 2 feet sticking up. These are often on the side of a steep hill. Well hills have a tendacy to slough or slide downhill so it is impossible to know if the leaning pipe is in its original condition or if it has been affect by some slippage of the mountainside.
Stuff that is disturbed by mowers and such is an easy call it's the ones way back in the woods that I tend to call it like I found it, leaning or otherwise.?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
