AI Assistant
Notifications
Clear all

Land Court Decision

21 Posts
13 Users
0 Reactions
1,569 Views
foggyidea
(@foggyidea)
Posts: 3462
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

I love this decision!

This was a case that started in 2005 and is a small portion of 100 acres that my client owns 1/3 of in Harwich MA. 9 days of trial including 2 1/2 of my testimony.

One great aspect of this case is that the Surveyors and title examiners direct testimony were pre-filed by affidavit. I think that this really helped speed the trial along and provided the judge with a more clear presentation than the usual question and answer would allow.

Allison vs. Harwich Planning Board


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 11:29 am
spledeus
(@spledeus)
Posts: 2757
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Better get the paragraph with Note 7 and Note 8 revised; David A. Schofield is not a RLS. He failed the test 3 times.

Looks like congrats are in order.

Why did the other side go with Rowley over R&W?


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 11:59 am
foggyidea
(@foggyidea)
Posts: 3462
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

I have mentioned that to the attorney, regarding Schofield that is... He's not sure how to address that issue.

R&W were not willing to defend title since they based their work on a previous East Cape Survey by Bowman..."As-claimed by" plan that is....

Interesting note from the attorney today; The defendants will not be appealing the decision.

spledeus, How come y'all weren't involved? that's always had me wondering..


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:02 pm
DeletedUser
(@deleted-user)
Posts: 8340
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

"Plaintiff’s case was made through the expert testimony of Richard O. Perry, Esq., and Donald T. Poole, Registered Land Surveyor (RLS). In addition, Plaintiff Freeman Allison testified. Defendants relied on the expert testimony of Title Examiner Paul R. O’Connell, III, and David A. Schofield, RLS, and Charles Rowley, RLS. "

Two against one and you prevailed. Well done Mr. Poole!

Have a great week.


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:18 pm
spledeus
(@spledeus)
Posts: 2757
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

We can't do them all, can we? Too bad that R&W only based their plan on an as-claimed by plan; those plans should be banned. R&W should be on the hook though, 310 CMR is very clear about the research requirements.

I was very frustrated when David took the stand and defined his profession as "Practicing Land Surveyor": one who works under a surveyor but is not licensed. He went on to explain that these 'pups' fresh out of college don't know jack about fieldwork. I've worked with him in the field, he was not too impressive. He then went on to state that an 18" white oak is well over a hundred and fifty years old.

One of his claims to fame is that he can find even the faintest of ridges, even those that you or I would consider to not exist...

Anyone have a guess on the age of an 18" white oak?
90 years, give or take


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:26 pm

Andy Bruner
(@andy-bruner)
Posts: 2778
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

It sounds as if you did what we are all supposed to do, but some fail to do so. Research, research, research. Around here we can't go back (deedwise) before 1883 when the courthouse burned destroying all records. Going back to the old maps was what won the day, in my opinion.

Ya done good

Andy


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:28 pm
Newtonsapple
(@newtonsapple)
Posts: 451
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

> We can't do them all, can we? Too bad that R&W only based their plan on an as-claimed by plan; those plans should be banned. R&W should be on the hook though, 310 CMR is very clear about the research requirements.
>
> I was very frustrated when David took the stand and defined his profession as "Practicing Land Surveyor": one who works under a surveyor but is not licensed. He went on to explain that these 'pups' fresh out of college don't know jack about fieldwork. I've worked with him in the field, he was not too impressive. He then went on to state that an 18" white oak is well over a hundred and fifty years old.
>
> One of his claims to fame is that he can find even the faintest of ridges, even those that you or I would consider to not exist...
>
> Anyone have a guess on the age of an 18" white oak?
> 90 years, give or take

With good conditions, I'd say 80 years at the youngest. At the top end, with a tree that has struggled, an 18" oak could be as much as 150 years old.


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:38 pm
spledeus
(@spledeus)
Posts: 2757
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Gold star for you.

No struggling, except for a sandy subsoil. It was called for in an 1864 deed. That tree would probably be a bit bigger than 18".


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:54 pm
spledeus
(@spledeus)
Posts: 2757
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

wow, ours burned down in 1827


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 12:55 pm
foggyidea
(@foggyidea)
Posts: 3462
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

and afterwards folks brought their deeds back for recording in some instances... We have books for individual towns for those recordings...


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 1:21 pm

ken-salzmann
(@ken-salzmann)
Posts: 634
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Congratulations on a job well done; must feel good.

Can you give us some background on the term "Chalk" ? Never heard that one.

Can you give us any tips on comprehending those old hand written deeds? You must be very good at it by now.

Thanks

KS


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 1:46 pm
Perry Williams
(@perry-williams)
Posts: 2183
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

>
> Anyone have a guess on the age of an 18" white oak?

I would say 100 years on the average.


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 1:48 pm
foggyidea
(@foggyidea)
Posts: 3462
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

a chalk is an exhibit that is not admitted as an exhibit but is used to assist in understanding the surveyors testimony. A sketch plan is the usual "chalk"....

As for reading old deeds, jeez, Get a good magnifying glass and don't try to anticipate the words! When I get involved in these cases i study the history of the town for old timers attitudes and actions at the time. In this case the 'History of Harwich' was invaluable. Oh, and for reading old deeds, look forward and backwards of the deeds in order to get the writing style. if you can't make out a word, keep looking at other deeds that have the same writing style until you get it!!!

thanks for the kind words, this was a long hard battle...

Dtp


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 2:00 pm
eapls2708
(@eapls2708)
Posts: 1907
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

> The court finds persuasive Poole’s placements of the deeds recorded in 1853…

>For the reasons stated above, the court finds persuasive Poole’s placement of the parcels and his location of Old Brewster Road based on deed descriptions containing monuments and abutter calls.

>The parties’ experts also introduced historical evidence to bolster their respective locations of the road and discredit the other surveyor’s placement. With respect to those types of evidence as well, this court finds Mr. Poole’s location of Old Brewster Road more persuasive.

What better recommendation for this type of work than to have several quotes from the court characterizing your work as persuasive.

>To support his contention that Allison’s road once traveled between the ponds, Poole relies on surveys and atlases from the mid 19th century.

>These documents support Poole’s argument that the railroad was built over the existing Old Brewster Road and bolsters his claim that Allison’s depiction of Old Brewster Road correctly locates the road.

This shows the value of considering a broad set of documentary evidence to be able to put one's physical evidence in context. Many surveyors would not go to the extent that Don did with regard to obtaining and using these historical documents. In most cases those surveyors would probably come out looking OK. But if they were to face someone as thorough as Don was in this case, they'd get as tore up as the other surveyor did. From reading this case, I get the impression that Don was considerably more thorough in his research, and therefore able to bring more corroborating evidence to trial than the other surveyor did.

>Rowley argues Poole ignores deed calls and natural monuments when placing the Dunham Parcel, but Poole convincingly points to the Mid Cape Highway Valuation Plan Y-69-H prepared for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of Public Works dated 1955 (Mid Cap Highway Plan) to support his position.

>The court finds Poole’s placement of the Dunham Parcel more persuasive largely due to the corroboration from the Mid Cape Highway Plan. As this plan locates all parcels southerly of the Dunham Parcel and northerly of Queen Anne Road, it provides persuasive evidence corroborating Poole’s location of the Dunham Parcel. If the court adopted Rowley’s location of the parcel it would shift all of the parcels located to the south of the Dunham Parcel southerly by 300 feet, extending them south of Queen Anne Road. Poole’s location properly locates these parcels to the north of Queen Anne Road, which is consistent with their deeds. Interestingly, the location of the Dunham Parcel as shown on the Mid Cape Highway Plan and on Poole’s Sketch Plan C (P’s Exhibit 32) was the location of the Dunham Parcel shown on a Study Sketch dated July 1978, by Schofield Brothers (Ps’ Exhibit 17). [Note 26] In the court’s view of the evidence, neither of Defendants’ surveyors dislodged Poole’s location of the Dunham Parcel when questioned specifically about its location. [Note 27]

I really like these two excerpts. It shows a comparison of the approach of the two surveyors that should be a lesson to all of us. One surveyor, apparently looking to a small subset of the evidence as if in a vacuum from the rest of the evidence and then setting aside common sense and misapplying the "rules of surveying", places some parcels on a side of the road that just doesn't make sense to those who are aware of the general parcel locations.

The other surveyor sought to harmonize the whole body of evidence, not rejecting any without specific and good reason but instead seeking how they fit together. The result being that the parcels end up being on the side of a road where everyone already knows they are, and the placement being explained and corroborated by reference to ancient records, including what seems to be a previous drawing by the surveyor (who isn't a surveyor) for the other side. (Ouch! That would be a bit embarrassing)

>On the credible evidence presented, and applying the governing law, I find and rule that the Old Brewster Harwich Road is shown as “Old Vehicle Tracks” on Sketch A attached hereto, which adopts the location shown on Sketch Plans A-D, Plaintiff’s Exhibits 30-33, “prepared by Donald T. Poole to accompany Narrative of Outermost Land Survey, In regarding the land of Freeman Allison,” dated October 16, 2006 (Poole’s Sketch Plans).

Excellent Don! Excellent!!


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 5:58 pm
rj-schneider
(@rj-schneider)
Posts: 2780
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

That was a pretty good read. I kind of wondered if we'd get to see one of those early coastal survey maps. If this Link works, it should be the subject property and area.


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 8:07 pm

Joe the Surveyor
(@joe-the-surveyor)
Posts: 1932
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Nice job!!! For a Red Sox fan...B-) 😛 😉


 
Posted : May 29, 2012 8:16 pm
foggyidea
(@foggyidea)
Posts: 3462
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

You're spot on there, RJ....I'll see if I can scan a older topo and post it later after a day in the field.

This was a good project. My goal was to show what happened between the road to the south (Queen Anne), the pond to the north, and the railroad running north to south. Having those monuments helped in narrowing down what really developed even prior to the railroad in the mid 1860's...Having three monuments such as those,and the westerly line being agreed upon (Registered, land court that is, land anyway)this was not an impossible job, you just need to look at ALL the evidence..and keep an open mind.

Thanks for all your nice comments, folks..


 
Posted : May 30, 2012 5:39 am
Moe Shetty
(@moe-shetty)
Posts: 1430
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

nicely done.

'THE TRIAL COURT
LAND COURT DEPARTMENT'

what level of court is this? not an appeal, right?


 
Posted : May 30, 2012 6:45 am
spledeus
(@spledeus)
Posts: 2757
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

superior court

you have the option of bringing land matters to the land court or the more general superior court.

generally speaking, those who have strong cases file with the land court; those who have weak cases file with the superior court. all land matters should go to the land court; they know what they are doing and don't need some of the basic education that those criminal judges need.


 
Posted : May 30, 2012 7:02 am
BobW
 BobW
(@bobw)
Posts: 30
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

> I have mentioned that to the attorney, regarding Schofield that is... He's not sure how to address that issue.

The attorney should file a nunc pro tunc motion with the court to correct the typo.


 
Posted : May 30, 2012 7:55 am

Page 1 / 2