We are fond of considering ourselves professionals and such and wail and gnash our teeth over trivial matters large and small like all fine professionals do. Now it can be debated whether we are professionals because of our license or our conduct or because we turn multiple sets of angles with the best instruments or because we say we are?
But our employees, what about them? Lawyers have paralegals, kinda a junior G-Man without the badge. Doctors have a whole bunch of para-professionals of various sorts.
So when does one go from being a field hand or cadd tech to being a para-professional in the survey world??ÿ
Is this even quantifiable? Is it upon passing a LIST test? Is it a degree from a school? What about an intern working for you for the summer?
I am curious because I will be having this debate soon at our local chapter and I would like to read your responses.
All sorts of jobs carry the label "para-professional". ?ÿIt is meaningless. ?ÿAll it really means is this person does not the education/skills to meet the requirements to be labeled a "professional. ?ÿ For example, schools are full of them. ?ÿIt basically means they do not have the education/skills to become a certified teacher yet they do things done by teachers, such as making copies, collating, distributing, inventorying, etc. of classroom materials.
I don't have a big brain but I would comfortably say the SIT is clearly a defining moment and I would expect an SIT working under me to know and understand that. I also highly respect those that pass the CST III/IV exam they have to know their stuff to pass those tests.?ÿ
A greenhorn with a BS degree would hold no value at all to someone who has caught the bug and has 5 years of solid experience. If you love surveying, like most of us do, you will read every text out there and devour books. I caught the bug with a non-survey BA degree and I have gone back and reinvented myself and taken about 45 hrs of survey classes and obtained a Graduate Certificate, but the classes only go so far and are no substitution for experience.?ÿ
I don't think a Nurse Practitioner would appreciate being called a paraprofessional?ÿ
The medical industry has legally defined professions or paraprofessions such as physician, nurse, various technical specialties. We don't. We have licensed professionals and everyone else is just skilled labor.
In Surveying we generally have Professionals and technicians. Engineering has the professional and technical tracks as well. Even the education is titled that way in many arenas...
We are fond of considering ourselves professionals and such and wail and gnash our teeth over trivial matters large and small like all fine professionals do. Now it can be debated whether we are professionals because of our license or our conduct or because we turn multiple sets of angles with the best instruments or because we say we are?
But our employees, what about them? Lawyers have paralegals, kinda a junior G-Man without the badge. Doctors have a whole bunch of para-professionals of various sorts.
So when does one go from being a field hand or cadd tech to being a para-professional in the survey world??ÿ
Is this even quantifiable? Is it upon passing a LIST test? Is it a degree from a school? What about an intern working for you for the summer?
I am curious because I will be having this debate soon at our local chapter and I would like to read your responses.
Land Surveyors are professional because in boundary surveying the decisions they make are interpretive.?ÿ We use measurements (which are themselves theoretical)?ÿ to collect evidence to decide where the corner is.?ÿ So when Bloomberg ran an article that drones would replace surveyors, the article was erroneous.?ÿ The layman writing the article thought that land surveyor's just measure.?ÿ We don't just measure, we measure to evaluate the evidence.?ÿ That's why land surveyor's are a profession.?ÿ We're like lawyers or doctors.?ÿ You get three doctors to evaluate a patient and you may get three different answers.?ÿ The same for an attorney, how they interpret the law is up to the individual attorney.?ÿ The same for the land surveyor.?ÿ A land surveyor's opinion where the corner is should hold up in a court of law.
Pretty soon a drone will fly over and remotely get your vital signs, no more doctors. High bp? Drop the right medication while you wait.
I could not agree more. I have 20 plus years experience in the field. I have held a CST III for 5 years ?ÿand, recently passed my FS exam and became an L.S.I.T. I have worked with some people who also had their L.S.I.T. that received it after graduating college. They didn't know the first thing about surveying. I would say education does play an important role but, I wouldn't hang my hat on it...
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So as I suspected it seems there is a vast difference of opinion.
My own trigger on what distinguishes a person from your regular technician or field hand to becoming a Sub-Professional or Para-Professional is passing the LSIT or CST test.
Thanks for the responses it has given me a few other items to chew on.?ÿ
I'm one of the few who would like to take a step back and become looked upon as more of a trade.?ÿ?ÿ Our professional status has us holding the water of responsibility and liability not incurred by the real professionals.
Someone asks you to survey their land.?ÿ Their current deed may have a description from the 1800's that has survived over 100 years and up to 20 transactions/conveyances.?ÿ There could be easements, out-lots, restrictions, etc., that aren't listed in this current legal document.?ÿ And somehow we're the ones on the hook for anything missed.?ÿ Not the lawyers or realtors, who've made more money than we do with each transaction, and have simply copied the prior descriptions and covered their asses with, "subject to all easements, restrictions, prior conveyances,......"
Most of us didn't go to law school, and it's a bit of an absurd joke on us, that we're taking on liability for things that the real law professionals aren't, and somehow it's good, because we're a lofty profession, not a lowly trade.
Sorry for the slightly off-topic rant.
An LSIT is not a paraprofessional. ?ÿHe, or she, is on a professional career track. ?ÿ
A paraprofessional is a separate career track where one will never be a professional, but will have a specific trained skill set to support the professional in collecting and collating information to aid the proffessional in their decisions.
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In NY the authorities don't really consider Land Surveyors to be Professionals.?ÿ They are more of a skilled trade like an Electrician.?ÿ Degrees, LSIT, CST, whatever doesn't really matter.?ÿ Those working for Licensed Land Surveyors are technically apprentices unless they eventually get licensed when they become a Land Surveyor.?ÿ
There are some advantages to degrees, LSIT, CST.?ÿ Degrees can shorten the time it takes to be admitted to the license exam; LSIT allows you to buy a card that states you are one, and the company you work for can claim you as one which may help get certain contracts; CST has same effect as LSIT.?ÿ But, you can't sit for the LSIT (FS) exam unless you graduate from a BS program, or if no degree then not until you qualify for both FS and PS exam.
So, either a Land Surveyor, a Land Surveyor in Training, or a Surveying Technician (with or without degree and/or CST).
For liability purposes the courts of the State have treated us as professionals (even though not named in the statutes, like for instance accountants are).?ÿ For expert testimony purposes courts have treated licensed and technicians as professional/experts.?ÿ The State board has removed protection of the name "professional land surveyor" and now only includes the term "land surveyor".?ÿ The State board wants to remove "that part of the engineering profession" from the definition of surveying statute, presumably doubling down on the idea surveyors are not "professionals".
So, para-professional wouldn't seem to be an issue here.
Is that big brained enough?
It is impossible to become a "professional" as defined currently and have a life outside of that. Sure, "It can be done if you want it bad enough" - Personally, I am on my last semester of classes to obtain the credits required to sit for the FS exam in Florida. Working +/- 50 hrs a week and taking classes, while still being a normal person at home, raising a child and accomplishing a honey-do list is tough. All who have done it know it is, and I am not a special case - hats off to those that have toughed it out. However, it has taken 2 years to complete my Geomatics Certificate, and if to be a professional I have to continue my regiment of the last 2 years for another 10, no thank you. Life is too short.?ÿ
With that said, the capacity to act as a professional is not all in the education requirement or experience. It is in the ability to correspond with others, analyze and solve complicated problems - legally and mathematically, as well as put together information from numerous sources and software into a comprehensible product that your client can understand. If one possesses those qualities and can function in that capacity, they are a professional in my book.?ÿ
I'm one of the few who would like to take a step back and become looked upon as more of a trade.?ÿ?ÿ Our professional status has us holding the water of responsibility and liability not incurred by the real professionals.
Someone asks you to survey their land.?ÿ Their current deed may have a description from the 1800's that has survived over 100 years and up to 20 transactions/conveyances.?ÿ There could be easements, out-lots, restrictions, etc., that aren't listed in this current legal document.?ÿ And somehow we're the ones on the hook for anything missed.?ÿ Not the lawyers or realtors, who've made more money than we do with each transaction, and have simply copied the prior descriptions and covered their asses with, "subject to all easements, restrictions, prior conveyances,......"
Most of us didn't go to law school, and it's a bit of an absurd joke on us, that we're taking on liability for things that the real law professionals aren't, and somehow it's good, because we're a lofty profession, not a lowly trade.
Sorry for the slightly off-topic rant.
But we don't have to take a step back to avoid that. You can just not do boundary surveys. There are many practicing surveyors who rarely, if ever, deal with boundaries or title.
Most attorneys and realtors cant identify many encumbrances because that is not part of their scope as proffesionals. For the most part only land surveyors have the?ÿ combined legal and technical background to do that type of work.?ÿ
I'm one of the few who would like to take a step back and become looked upon as more of a trade.?ÿ?ÿ Our professional status has us holding the water of responsibility and liability not incurred by the real professionals.
Someone asks you to survey their land.?ÿ Their current deed may have a description from the 1800's that has survived over 100 years and up to 20 transactions/conveyances.?ÿ There could be easements, out-lots, restrictions, etc., that aren't listed in this current legal document.?ÿ And somehow we're the ones on the hook for anything missed.?ÿ Not the lawyers or realtors, who've made more money than we do with each transaction, and have simply copied the prior descriptions and covered their asses with, "subject to all easements, restrictions, prior conveyances,......"
Most of us didn't go to law school, and it's a bit of an absurd joke on us, that we're taking on liability for things that the real law professionals aren't, and somehow it's good, because we're a lofty profession, not a lowly trade.
Sorry for the slightly off-topic rant.
But we don't have to take a step back to avoid that. You can just not do boundary surveys. There are many practicing surveyors who rarely, if ever, deal with boundaries or title. There is room for us all.
Most attorneys and realtors cant identify many encumbrances because that is not part of their scope as proffesionals. For the most part only land surveyors have the?ÿ combined legal and technical background to do that type of work.?ÿ
It is impossible to become a "professional" as defined currently and have a life outside of that. Sure, "It can be done if you want it bad enough" - Personally, I am on my last semester of classes to obtain the credits required to sit for the FS exam in Florida. Working +/- 50 hrs a week and taking classes, while still being a normal person at home, raising a child and accomplishing a honey-do list is tough. All who have done it know it is, and I am not a special case - hats off to those that have toughed it out. However, it has taken 2 years to complete my Geomatics Certificate, and if to be a professional I have to continue my regiment of the last 2 years for another 10, no thank you. Life is too short.?ÿ
With that said, the capacity to act as a professional is not all in the education requirement or experience. It is in the ability to correspond with others, analyze and solve complicated problems - legally and mathematically, as well as put together information from numerous sources and software into a comprehensible product that your client can understand. If one possesses those qualities and can function in that capacity, they are a professional in my book.?ÿ
The current trend in many places is to 'remove barriers to licensure'. I know of 3 places where you can get the education required without ever stepping on a campus.?ÿ
If those don't fit there are still numerous States where you can become licensed with a 2 year degree. Some still require no education with enough experience.
I do expect the zero education paths to close over time, but the alternative education paths are expanding.?ÿ
At the end of the day you nailed one thing perfect. If you want it bad enough you'll get it. There are ways to do it (and enjoy life) if you look. In the words of the great philosopher RonWhite, "I've seen me do it."..
It is impossible to become a "professional" as defined currently and have a life outside of that. Sure, "It can be done if you want it bad enough" - Personally, I am on my last semester of classes to obtain the credits required to sit for the FS exam in Florida. Working +/- 50 hrs a week and taking classes, while still being a normal person at home, raising a child and accomplishing a honey-do list is tough. All who have done it know it is, and I am not a special case - hats off to those that have toughed it out. However, it has taken 2 years to complete my Geomatics Certificate, and if to be a professional I have to continue my regiment of the last 2 years for another 10, no thank you. Life is too short.?ÿ
With that said, the capacity to act as a professional is not all in the education requirement or experience. It is in the ability to correspond with others, analyze and solve complicated problems - legally and mathematically, as well as put together information from numerous sources and software into a comprehensible product that your client can understand. If one possesses those qualities and can function in that capacity, they are a professional in my book.?ÿ
What you have identified is a recruitment problem. You are bit supposed become a proffesional while you are having a life. It's just as hard or harder to become a doctor or a lawyer while supporting a family, but far fewer try to do it. You are "supposed" to become a proffesional before you have a life. The problem is far fewer high school students graduate with a plan to become a surveyor, so more end up with the struggle you are having.
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It is impossible to become a "professional" as defined currently and have a life outside of that. Sure, "It can be done if you want it bad enough" - Personally, I am on my last semester of classes to obtain the credits required to sit for the FS exam in Florida. Working +/- 50 hrs a week and taking classes, while still being a normal person at home, raising a child and accomplishing a honey-do list is tough. All who have done it know it is, and I am not a special case - hats off to those that have toughed it out. However, it has taken 2 years to complete my Geomatics Certificate, and if to be a professional I have to continue my regiment of the last 2 years for another 10, no thank you. Life is too short.?ÿ
With that said, the capacity to act as a professional is not all in the education requirement or experience. It is in the ability to correspond with others, analyze and solve complicated problems - legally and mathematically, as well as put together information from numerous sources and software into a comprehensible product that your client can understand. If one possesses those qualities and can function in that capacity, they are a professional in my book.?ÿ
What you have identified is a recruitment problem. You are bit supposed become a proffesional while you are having a life. It's just as hard or harder to become a doctor or a lawyer while supporting a family, but far fewer try to do it. You are "supposed" to become a proffesional before you have a life. The problem is far fewer high school students graduate with a plan to become a surveyor, so more end up with the struggle you are having.
?ÿ
It is impossible to become a "professional" as defined currently and have a life outside of that. Sure, "It can be done if you want it bad enough" - Personally, I am on my last semester of classes to obtain the credits required to sit for the FS exam in Florida. Working +/- 50 hrs a week and taking classes, while still being a normal person at home, raising a child and accomplishing a honey-do list is tough. All who have done it know it is, and I am not a special case - hats off to those that have toughed it out. However, it has taken 2 years to complete my Geomatics Certificate, and if to be a professional I have to continue my regiment of the last 2 years for another 10, no thank you. Life is too short.?ÿ
With that said, the capacity to act as a professional is not all in the education requirement or experience. It is in the ability to correspond with others, analyze and solve complicated problems - legally and mathematically, as well as put together information from numerous sources and software into a comprehensible product that your client can understand. If one possesses those qualities and can function in that capacity, they are a professional in my book.?ÿ
What you have identified is a recruitment problem. You are bit supposed become a proffesional while you are having a life. It's just as hard or harder to become a doctor or a lawyer while supporting a family, but far fewer try to do it. You are "supposed" to become a proffesional before you have a life. The problem is far fewer high school students graduate with a plan to become a surveyor, so more end up with the struggle you are having.
?ÿ
I'm one of the few who would like to take a step back and become looked upon as more of a trade.?ÿ?ÿ Our professional status has us holding the water of responsibility and liability not incurred by the real professionals.
Someone asks you to survey their land.?ÿ Their current deed may have a description from the 1800's that has survived over 100 years and up to 20 transactions/conveyances.?ÿ There could be easements, out-lots, restrictions, etc., that aren't listed in this current legal document.?ÿ And somehow we're the ones on the hook for anything missed.?ÿ Not the lawyers or realtors, who've made more money than we do with each transaction, and have simply copied the prior descriptions and covered their asses with, "subject to all easements, restrictions, prior conveyances,......"
Most of us didn't go to law school, and it's a bit of an absurd joke on us, that we're taking on liability for things that the real law professionals aren't, and somehow it's good, because we're a lofty profession, not a lowly trade.
Sorry for the slightly off-topic rant.
you make a lot of valid points.
