> > It is the trait of a technician (and a poor one at that) to believe he knows everything he needs to know without ever going back and reviewing and learning new things.
>
> I feel sorry for you for writing such a comment, Sir.
I respectfully stand behind my statement. Have seen it far too many times. Those who learned how to do a certain thing and always and forever do exactly that thing under any and every circumstance is a technician and not a professional.
This in my humble opinion.
A professional can and should craft what he or she does to meet the needs and wants of the individual client and their unique circumstance. Of course, it is not ok to dip below the minimum required standards just because it is what a client thinks they want. The professional will know there is a floor to what he or she is willing to provide.
Larry P
:good:
> I respectfully stand behind my statement. Have seen it far too many times. Those who learned how to do a certain thing and always and forever do exactly that thing under any and every circumstance is a technician and not a professional.
>
> This in my humble opinion.
>
> A professional can and should craft what he or she does to meet the needs and wants of the individual client and their unique circumstance. Of course, it is not ok to dip below the minimum required standards just because it is what a client thinks they want. The professional will know there is a floor to what he or she is willing to provide.
>
> Larry P
I see the point your making, and agree with it in principle; however it has always bothered me for surveyors (not just you in this case) to continually use the word technician as a pejorative. Over the years I've know many great people who's work would be categorized as a "technician" and the recent trend to use "technician" as a synonym for "unprofessional" seems to me to unnecessarily belittle their contribution.
It might just be me, but for lack of a better word, the use of "technician" in this manner seems ungentlemanly.
> It might just be me, but for lack of a better word, the use of "technician" in this manner seems ungentlemanly.
I don't disagree with you Jim. Help me find a better synonym.
Larry P
>It is the trait of a technician (and a poor one at that) to believe he knows everything he needs to know without ever going back and reviewing and learning new things.
It is not the trait of a professional to believe he knows everything he needs to know without ever going back and reviewing and learning new things.
>Those who learned how to do a certain thing and always and forever do exactly that thing under any and every circumstance is a technician and not a professional.
Those who learned how to do a certain thing and always and forever do exactly that thing under any and every circumstance are not professionals.
James, I kind of agree with you. But I think Larry is making technicians out of licensed professionals rather than saying technicians are subpar. I agree our technicians don't get the respect they deserve in surveying. Many of them know more than I in certain areas.
If a day goes by that I don't refer to a book, they will be carving a stone for me.
On the other hand, using a pile of books in court does not strike me as good strategy. Probably would depend on the judge and attorney arguments. Too tired to expand on this right now but I have a bad feeling about it.
It's a good post and an interesting question.
I have been collecting and reading surveying books for many years. I read them every week. They are all close at hand.
I have found out that there is not have an adequate selection of books until they begin to contradict each other. That is where the true analysis and learning begins.
> I have found out that there is not have an adequate selection of books until they begin to contradict each other. That is where the true analysis and learning begins.
"Read books are far less valuable than unread ones. The library should contain as much of what you don’t know as your financial means, mortgage rates and the currently tight real-estate market allows you to put there. You will accumulate more knowledge and more books as you grow older, and the growing number of unread books on the shelves will look at you menacingly. Indeed, the more you know, the larger the rows of unread books. Let us call this collection of unread books an anti-library."
? Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Managed to get quotes in from the two modern writers who have most influenced the way I think in the same thread - calling it a night 😉
I refer to my library (books) when unfamiliar with a situation. Being a expert, your citation to books as references would indicate for my counsel as inexperience. First, the citation of the BLM Manual applies to federal land and federal standards which may not even be an issue in a case in the State of California. Citing the BLM manual as a method for the subdivision of a section and "where a corner may fall" would make a good knowledgeable opposing attorney lick his chops. My personal experience is leave the books out in testimony and only cite instances that are specific to the issue or issues. I would think with the multitude of California real estate case law, that there would be a considerable amount of decisions made on similar situations and evidence. Quit trying to impress the court with your library collection.....
Pablo
One of the point in the code of ethics of your professional group should read something like this:
Members shall conduct themselves with fairness, courtesy and good faith towards clients, colleagues and others, give credit where it is due and accept, as well as give, honest and fair professional comment.
In my opinion, your comment towards the technician was not a professional comment.
I think the definition in question is "technician". The use of the word should not be misrepresented as being only technicians but as somenoe who acts as one who thinks they understand a particular subject.
A wise surveyor named Walt Fraser told me in my early years, "It is to much to try and know everything, the key is to know what books to look in for the situation your in." (pre-internet days)
His advice got me through school and still helps me every week, but I do tend to lean on the web more than my library these days.
Me? Young'n??? Even though the link says this in response to me, it MUST be in error. Everyone knows I was born 2 days before dirt was invented!!
Do NOT bring your books to Court! Bring copies ...
I have seen a Judge look at a book and declare it as an exhibit. The person that brought the book just lost it!
Bring xerographic copies of pertinent pages. If the Judge wants the references, he can have them; nothing lost.
Do NOT bring your books to Court! Bring copies>GOOD ADVICE
Good advice Cliff,
I copy the title page as well as the pertinent portions and take that to the stand with me. That way it's all fair game for the opposing attorney and the judge.
I did have to loan one book to the judge for a few days during one trial.
Dtp
Let's get back to the nuts and bolts of the thread.
[sarcasm]How come nobody asked about the location of the fences?[/sarcasm]
0.04'
The issue was a standard of practice issue. I've seen some opine that a surveyor fell below the standard just based upon their own understanding which may or may not be correct.
The point I made at this part of the testimony is that I will not opine that another fell below the standard on my opinion unsupported by reference to published sources. It is not a sign of inexperience or of a lack of confidence, but just the opposite. I was able to counter some of the opinions of the other expert effectively because I was able to show support of them from published sources and he testified only on the weight of his own opinion.
I too refer to my books when I'm unfamiliar with a situation. I would hope that would be the case with all professionals. But sadly, I know it isn't. There are many very arrogant licensees who think that by virtue of holding a license, or in some cases, by virtue of having been surveying since the wooden stake was invented, that they know darn near everything there is to know, and so very seldom refer to their books.
I find that to be very arrogant. I also usually find the very arrogant to be far less knowledgeable than they project, and almost always far too insecure in their knowledge to entertain any challenge to it. Challenge is almost always met without benefit of any real persuasive argument, but instead with some flippant and insulting dismissal of the challenger.
Do NOT bring your books to Court! Bring copies ...
I had heard just such stories, so I did bring photocopies of the pertinent passages. Some were entered into evidence. I still have all my books.
When I'm teaching a person something I know, but forgot why, I refer to them quite often. When I'm having an argument and want to make my point, quite often.
As far as everyday boundary, not so often, but, I reach for 4th ed. of Evidences and Procedures probably once every two months and Blacks Law probably once a month.
My dad has a helluva large collection of books that I've read, and I've added maybe 10 to the mix, not counting CEU courses where material was given. Some of that handout material was great.
