Hatfield and Mccoy nonsense..

WOW!!

full disclosure: I'm just the field crew here.

Help!, post: 444355, member: 12997 wrote: We hired a surveyor ASAP when we found out about the inherited boundary dispute. They came out today, but seem to have only compounded the problem. Three hours after arriving, they wrap up and are showing me the lines. Whoa..I know many property owners feel they own more than reality, but this is a huge difference. I questioned the survey guys about it, who were very friendly, but they explained they actually have no idea how to read a deed- they forward the info collected by their "robot" into a guy in the office who then sends pin placements back to the field techs.

The short answer is you don't need the cheapest and fastest survey that can be obtained since apparently you may already have it in hand or on the way. What you need is an actual expert to make a study of the deeds under which you and your neighbor derive your respective titles (including likely those of your respective predecessors all the way back to the point in time when both tracts were under one ownership.

Then you need that actual expert to go out on the ground with such assistants as he or she deems appropriate to search for the physical evidence that will be part of a proof of the location of the boundary in question.

A report summarizing the investigation of the records and the field evidence, accompanied by a map or sketch, would be the product that I'd expect.

Will that be cheap or fast? I hope not, because if it is, you will have most likely wasted your money.

You need a good attorney with experience in handling boundary disputes. You also need a second opinion on the survey you got (which sounds to me like it came off an assembly line and not from an experienced professional) -- and a good attorney could likely refer you to a surveyor who can handle a mess like this with some expertise and explain his or her conclusions to you to your satisfaction. Remember, a land surveyor isn't necessarily providing you with the absolutely correct solution but can only provide a professional opinion. The only place you can get a legally binding decision on where this boundary lies is in a court of law.

Where are you at OP. There are many highly qualified individuals here who can assist if your locale is known.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Help!, post: 444355, member: 12997 wrote:
3.
As surveyors, how do you think I should handle this whole situation?what is your advice in regards to both the property and the balance due to the current surveyor? I hired them for an independent survey and didn't not receive that service. I would have never have hired a surveyor to repeat my neighbors old survey and disregard our deed.

first: pay your bill.

second: put that lawyer thought on the back burner, they don't do Boundaries

third: speak face to face with the surveyor in charge. And pay him for his extra effort and hand holding. Education is not normally included in a survey.

fourth: do what Kent said. Get a real expert on the ground. It will cost more than a plumber does.

Be very skeptical of anyone claiming to know where your corners are, if they have not found the stones called for in your deeds.
Those stones are your corners, regardless if the measured distances exactly match the deed distances, and directions.

Well I would advise you to avoid a lawsuit at all costs. It sounds possibly like the original boundary lines can not be retracable. You do need a good Lawyer who can act as an intermediator between you and your neighbor. Possibly he can get both you and your neighbor to agree on a location of the property line that both of you may not like, but can live with. He would then draw up a Boundary Line Agreement that both of you would sign and share the cost of your measurement happy Surveyor to mark appropriately and file a record of his survey with your appropriate Government Office.
A lawsuit will cost $100,000 minimum if you go to trial. You will hate your neighbor and he will hate you. The Judge will probably decide on a boundary location that neither of you like. Unless the argument is over a substantial amount of land I woul never institute a lawsuit. Sometimes however one party is so stubborn a lawsuit is the only remedy. A civil case lasts 2 or 3 years before actually going to trial. Is a foot or two of property worth the stress? It sounds as if you've gotten two Surveyors to agree where they think the property line is. You're going to have to find a pretty reputable Expert to dispute those two surveys. Not cheap.
AVOID A LAWSUIT AT ALL COSTS. Make sure you analyze the pros and cons before you go down that road.

Oh my. Why don't people have surveys done before they buy?

You've had some pretty good advise here already. I haven't a lot to add. You have a problem and a special effort is required to resolve it. Look for a surveyor who sends the licensed person in responsible charge to the field.

But first you should arrange a sit down face to face meeting with the one you have to review the findings. Way too easy to confuse things on the phone. It might be just a misunderstanding.

It's not just your deed that needs to be considered. What do your neighbors deeds say? Is it in harmony with yours? The whole chain of title needs to be reviewed on both sides of the line.

I'd hold off on hiring an attorney until you have done these things. Good surveyors are cheaper than attorneys.

Your deed calls to a stone, to a stone, etc. It is these stones that are the key to the basis of bearings of your deed.. Monuments hold over measurements.

Out of curiosity - how much did this surveyor you hired quote you? 3 hours on site to run a problem boundary doesn't seem like nearly enough to do a proper job of it. Even so it sounds like there may have been too little research done before going to the field. If so, there is still a chance to salvage the situation.

The stones might be out there, have to look for those first. That alone could take a few days, like an archeological dig.

This is a situation that does require stones to be involved.
An expert is a must and not someone that is going to talk around the subject and be shy from taking the time to do the due diligence involved in a complete survey backed by complete research and to explain everything fully and with true and factual results.
Remember that you have rights before any survey is done.
You bought what was shown on the existing survey and should have been shown to you by your Realtor.
You have a title policy on the property, let's hope so..........
They are near the top of the list of who you contact when someone is claiming what you thought was a part of what you purchased.
Still, their first thought will be that of getting a surveyor if they question the existing one.

Title insurance in my opinion is worthless. If the property is not located where the deed says, that is a surveying problem and unless you've got an exceptional Policy survey problems are an exception. It's a good idea to contact them though, you might get something out of them. What State are you in? Maybe somebody on here can recommend a good surveyor in your area. Sounds like you don't have much confidence in your current one.You probably need a Title Search done by the Title Company and request copies of all the documents they find. There's a lot of research that needs to be done before measuring starts. A chain of title may also be necessary. A landowner can't sell land he never owned. The original survey needs to be examined. Does it describe a section centerline as a boundary? Many times these were never determined properly on the ground.
Good Luck.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but It looks like the 20 perches is the common boundary of the two triangles, yet there are two different bearings.
You keep mentioning that the bearings are magnetic. How do you know that the bearings are based on magnetic north or that they line up with the county maps?
If you want to dispute the survey find the stones or pay someone that will.
Any good surveyor would have picked up all the deeds necessary to complete the job including the adjoiner's, but you may have hired low baller, live and learn I guess

Hi all,

Thanks for taking the time to respond!! I'm completely lost with this issue, so your opinions are very appreciated.

Kent:
Prize goes to you for responding first! Thank you! Great info, when you said make a study of the deeds and predecessors deeds, is this something that I do or the surveyor does? Why I ask is I brought this up with him today and was told I could go to the county and get records if I thought it would be helpful, but if surveyors have a system that has this information it would save me a two hour round trip with a newborn and toddler in tow.

CeeGee: Thanks for reminding me that surveys are opinions. I thought they were legally binding to some degree.

Paul: Chester County PA. Any recommendations for this area?

Skeeter- Thanks for your insight! Agreed about avoiding a lawsuit. Thanks for the info, had no idea civil cases were so drawn out.. I want this resolved as amicably as possible, but without surrendering 40 feet or so.
However we DONT have two surveys that match. The neighbors 1982 survey has our bearing wrong and today's surveyor copy and pasted that same 1982 survey. So the line was put at a different degree than the deed. He stated that he can't know exactly where our boundaries are without the neighbors deed, so he has to change our deed bearing to fit the neighbors survey. I could understand if this was after finding the landmarks, but this is without finding any landmarks. He agreed that if he had the neighbors deed it would likely come together better, but he didn't have their deed information and so this was the answer- change our deed.

Peter: I understand that surveyors such as yourself are professionals and professionals need compensation. However, as I contracted him for an independent survey based on my deed and that was not done. This was admittedly a copy and paste on the neighbors 1982 survey where the bearings are wrong according to our deed. So now our deed gets changes to fit the 1982 survey. Why does this 1982 survey trump my deed? (and our deed land markers, can't miss the mini boulders the deed refers to) I run a small business and take delivering on services very seriously. There is no way I would tell my clients- I couldn't figure it out, so I just based it off the wrong number and you have to pay. No questions either, because education isn't included. That's a good way to land in small claims court. I do agree we need a professional on the ground.

John: Agreed about the stones. Do all surveyors go by landmarks mentioned in the deed or is a grey area?

Mark: Oops! Hindsight is 20/20. This is our first real property and I didn't know better. I totally agree that they neighbors deed- not survey- is needed to fit this together. Our deed and the neighbors 1982 survey were the only docs pulled it sounds like. And even though they don't match, somehow their survey trumped the deed. I'm actually surprised this company is willing to put their name to someone else's survey. And I'd guess we're up to $800, possibly a $1000. I kind of feel backed into a corner because the survey was admittedly not delivered on and I ether don't pay or pay for something that wasn't done. There was verbal admission of "can't find the deed boundaries, so we're using these other numbers" paraphrasing. Direct quote "I didn't go off your deed, I went by the neighbors survey." So this is why I'm at a loss, we're not wealthy and can't afford to pay for services not rendered.

Dave: thanks for the reply. There are big ole stones planted near the corners. Luckily these are super obvious (and a pain to weed wack so says my husband) Today's surveyor said the stones weren't relevant and to him that the word stone denotes a small 4inch x 4inch rock.

A.Harris: I love all these mentions of stones. Thanks for your insight.I had a hunch they were important. My grandfather said contact the title company. This is turning into a full time job, but losing money instead of making it!

Bill: I was told the bearings MAY be magnetic because of the deed age. The reason I think they are is that magnetic bearings don't put the school yard (where kids played) in covering the entire road that was preexisting when the schoolhouse was built. See pic. Also, magnetic north matches pretty well with the stones mentioned in the deed. Thirdly- since the surveyor dismissed it entirely, saying he had never heard of magnetic north, I feel like that a thorough investigation was not done and am trying to do some legwork to see if the deed is indeed magnetic. I didn't go with the lowest quote- or the highest. Right in the middle. The highest quote seemed rushed and said they don't make small projects a priority on their calendar so they wouldn't be able to get me in for a while. I know it's not a lot of land, but obviously homeowners like myself with smaller lots want to be an equal priority.

Whew! That was a lot of typing! Thank you again for your responses! I contacted a second survey company, but now am nervous that I'm going to have a very expensive repeat of today. All local recommendations welcome! I honestly don't know how much more surveying we can afford, but will take out of savings for one more. Also, what are your thoughts on magnetic north? Can I find more info at the county office? I'm thinking of just offering to buy 15 feet of the neighbors land so we don't have his yard trash stacked up out the back door. I don't know if he'd accept. Stubborn. One more thing, we don't have wifi yet so I'm on my cell, with no reception in these parts unless I stand in one spot in the yard or the front of my house. Not easy to do with the baby fussing- so if I go mia that's why. Thanks again!

An expert boundary Surveyor is expected to do the research and pick up copies of the relevant Deeds back as far as necessary.

A local expert should be familiar with the size of stones which were set, they may be familiar with surveyors who practiced over the centuries and what they set for monument.

I would say it's not outside the realm of possibility that magnetic bearings were used but a Pennsylvania Surveyor would know better than I would. The magnetic North Pole moves over time so magnetic north today is not the same as it was in 1890, for example. This can be accounted for by taking the date of the original Deed and looking up the magnetic declination for that date.

Help!, post: 444388, member: 12997 wrote: Great info, when you said make a study of the deeds and predecessors deeds, is this something that I do or the surveyor does? Why I ask is I brought this up with him today and was told I could go to the county and get records if I thought it would be helpful, but if surveyors have a system that has this information it would save me a two hour round trip with a newborn and toddler in tow.

Ordinarily, I'd assume that any expert surveyor in practice in the area where your land is situated would know the most efficient way of researching the earlier conveyances in your chain of title and that of the adjoining landowner. If for some reason that task is problematic, I'd expect an expert surveyor to let you know and explain what the options are.

I can tell you that as a general rule, it is more efficient for the surveyor to arrange to make the research and not the client/landowner. One exception to that rule would be the instance where the client/landowner has an abstract of title in his or her possession as ready evidence of their own title. That exception would apply to perhaps 2% or less of the cases I deal with in Texas. Your mileage may vary.

[USER=136]@James Fleming[/USER]

Is this pretty close to your back yard?

The bearings most likely we're based on at least a starting magnetic bearing. The question would be, did he adjust it for declination. I don't put much faith in trying to duplicate an old surveys magnetic basis of bearing. Usually you find a couple of monuments and rotate into them to try and get into the old Surveyor's basis of bearings, then you rely more on the angles between the legs of the survey. Is there a road bordering one or more sides of your property? Sometimes you can rotate to the bearing of the road. Not being familiar with PA surveys didn't they describe the stone corners on the Plat or an associated document. Did he put Mark's on the stones? You need to get the entire record of your survey so you know what to look for.
A good survey and Certificate of Survey will cost a minimum of a $1000 for one easy day of surveying. If you want a survey for legal purposes the cost will be considerably higher. A decent Lawyer is $500 an hour, but a good Surveyor's time is worth twice that. If you find a good Surveyor his testimony could reduce your legal costs considerably.
Your suggestion of coming to an agreement to buy the disputed property is a good decision. You'll know what you'll get before you spend the money. It's very hard to find a decent Attorney versed in land disputes and they are usually very expensive.

Existing old fences are also good evidence of property boundaries. Didn't the old home owners construct stone walls? Look for evidence of old property line occupations. The old timers usually marked their territory. A good Surveyor will spot the evidence as soon as he steps out of his truck. Are there hedge or tree rows? There's gotta be some evidence of the prior owners area of occupation.

I note that this lot is in an area known as HARMONYVILLE, in WARWICK Township, Chester County, PA. The Chester
County GIS appears to be rather clunky. Deed origins in this area predate Daniel Boone. I am surprised that a school parcel from that era would be that large.

As best as I can see, this parcel lost area to various road relocations and research would require searching road returns for three different roads, typically in county archives, not necessarily the courthouse. Possibly getting the original patent map from the state archives. Complications are the 1982 subdivision sets a solid timeline for possession.

This survey may be a lot of fun and expense, but no one can really promise you what you seek.

Paul in PA