I got a call a couple of weeks ago from a Houston surveyor who told me that his party chief had found some "nails and shiners" with my name on them and wondered what I could tell him about them. "What numbers are they?" I asked.
"My party chief says they're stamped '4341'," he said.
After we'd established that is my registration number and that a name and registration number is an excellent way of identifying a marker that a Texas surveyor sets as being something for which he is professionally responsible, I filled him in on the rest of the story.
"What your 'party chief' probably found was one of my 2 inch aluminum or brass washers stamped with my name and registration number and also stamped with a point i.d. number. If your 'party chief' was able to find these things, chances are they were set in a sidewalk or curb with a 3/8 in. spike driven into a drill hole into some existing concrete. If you get him to actually make note of the point i.d. numbers, I'll bet I can look them up and tell you something useful."
Next day, I learn that - lo and behold! - they actually do have more stampings beyond "4341" and I make note of the three point i.d. nos. as they are read to me.
The general vicinity of the project is described and I dig out the index to my records to see which project that was. After an hour's worth of seining all water and no minnows, it occurs to me that there really is no project file in that vicinity and that is why I can't find one and don't recall ever having made a survey in that block.
However, the point i.d. numbers were a clue. They were relatively large and that told me the survey was probably connected to a much larger network of control points. I checked the nearest large control network with numbers that high and ruled it out. The next closest control network was about half a mile away. It was a project I'd surveyed about fifteen years ago and did have three spike and washer control points with those three numbers, all set in existing concrete surfaces and in positions that would be easy to find in plain sight.
"Do you suppose you have got your jobs mixed up?" I asked. Yes, he had. His folks were actually working on a survey that was half a mile away from the location he'd given me.
They had driven up to Austin to do some of them ALTA-type surveys and I'm sure it had all run together. If it weren't for that identifiable brass washer with its point i.d. number, I probably would have wasted the better part of an hour driving over to the vicinity originally described to try to figure out why there were some of my spikes and washers in plain view that I had no record or recollection of.
Oh, Practice Tip of the Day: The object in the photo below is not correctly described as a "nail and shiner".
Yup. Nothing shiny there.
Kent McMillan, post: 344307, member: 3 wrote: Oh, Practice Tip of the Day: The object in the photo below is not correctly described as a "nail and shiner".
It had been pointed out at one point that "we crew" are not technically setting "iron rods", either. 😀
Except that steel is predominantly iron and lengths of modern rebar are rod-shaped. "Iron Rod" is a term of art used by Texas surveyors, if not by steel fabricators. On the other hand "shiner" means a thin piece of metal used with a fastener to hold down roofing felt that surveyors have adopted for other purposes.
The point is that descriptions matter because they are what allow another surveyor to definitely identify what you've found without having to make the assumption that you even knew where you were within half a mile.
"Iron Rod" is a term of art used by Texas surveyors..
Like wise "nail and shiner" is a bit of field craft employed by crews, and a sort of colloquialism used to denote some sort of hardware that registered had found on sale at home depot, or related building supply store.
You technically set a steel spike of undeterminate width and length, affixed to an alluminum fender washer. 🙂
the use of common English would be a help for all of us. no need to be verbose, but like you said things have labels in the hardware stores.
R.J. Schneider, post: 344327, member: 409 wrote: "Iron Rod" is a term of art used by Texas surveyors..
Like wise "nail and shiner" is a bit of field craft employed by crews, and a sort of colloquialism used to denote some sort of hardware that registered had found on sale at home depot, or related building supply store.
You technically set a steel spike of undeterminate width and length, affixed to an alluminum fender washer.
Well, there are descriptions and there are descriptions. A professional-quality description of that spike and washer would be: "Punchmark on 3/8 in. Spike set with 2 in. Brass Washer stamped 'KENT MCMILLAN, SURVEYOR, 710, RPLS 4341' in Concrete Sidewalk". The reason why that is good practice instead of some short string of quasi-random alphanumeric characters fat-fingered into a data collector is that it will allow a surveyor to identify the thing perfectly well if the brass washer is still intact.
1. It has the unique number "710" on it that isn't duplicated anywhere within half a mile of the project and of course gives full professional identification.
2. It describes what will remain if the washer were scraped off (not likely on a sidewalk, but more common in street pavements and concrete at pavement grade when construction is in progress in the roadway). If the washer is destroyed, there is the shank of a 3/8 in. dia. spike that remains as described. If the spike is gone, there is a 3/8 in. drill hole in concrete that remains.
Since a heavy brass washer isn't a piece of tin and obviously isn't a roofing shiner, "nail and shiner" is just pathetic cluelessness.
Since a heavy brass washer isn't a piece of tin and obviously isn't a roofing shiner, "nail and shiner" is just pathetic cluelessness
I don't think I would waste too much time on that. The one thing that gets noted is the registered number, and unless there are more than one of these deals within a few feet of each other, the job specific numbers, such as "710", or "old number six", really aren't that critical.
I'd give registered the benefit of the doubt as to determining whether you stamped a "shiner" or washer.
I thought the term shiner came from using Shiner Boch beer caps:-D:beer:
Southern California = nail & tin
Northern California = nail & shiner.
They won't be shiny after a few months in the rain.
I don't think I would waste too much time on that. The one thing that gets noted is the registered number, and unless there are more than one of these deals within a few feet of each other, the job specific numbers, such as "710", or "old number six", really aren't that critical.
It sounds as if you've never gotten much mentoring about how to describe identified monuments. At a minimum, a stamped cap or washer should be described by noting:
Material (and color, if plastic),
Diameter (if other than standard Mickey Mouse brand plastic cap),
Nature of rod or spike affixing washer, cap, or collar (i.e. iron rod, spike, PK nail or what),
Size of rod or spike if it can be determined (usually it can be),
Exact stamping, reading in sequence on the cap, washer, or collar,
Station mark (if "+", punchmark, or something else).
Will all this fit into eighteeen characters mashed into a data collector? Unlikely. Since the law requires Texas surveyors to describe the boundary monuments they find, both in written descriptions and on maps, there is no professional alternative to actually describing them when the purpose of the description is considered.
My grandfather always called the minnows we used for bait "shiners." I was wondering why surveyors were nailing fish to the ground...
Just to be clear then. If a surveyor doesn't list all of these things on both his plat and in his description, should he expect to be found in violation of State statute?
R.J. Schneider, post: 344322, member: 409 wrote: It had been pointed out at one point that "we crew" are not technically setting "iron rods", either. 😀
I've thought about that too, RJ. We say "iron rod" when referring to steel rebar, but it is less precise. Locally surveyors understand "iron rod" to usually refer to steel rebar. Some have taken to using the term "steel rebar". Along with that, locally, due to our oilfield history, there is "sucker rod". The sucker rod is the rod that goes into the well from the pump at the wellhead and is used to pump the oil out of the ground. Typically these types of stakes are specifically described as "sucker rod" even though "iron rod" would technically work.
I'm thankful for professional discretion that allows surveyors flexibility in these things.
Shawn Billings, post: 344347, member: 6521 wrote: If a surveyor doesn't list all of these things on both his plat and in his description, should he expect to be found in violation of State statute?
Well, one could make the following a question on a licensing exam for Texas surveyors: "What is the reason why a surveyor should write a description of a survey monument found or set, beyond being in compliance with State law?"
The main reason, of course, is that it allows a future surveyor to identify the monument with more than reasonable certainty by matching a number of characteristics given by the description to the object recovered.
Take the sample description I gave above:
"Punchmark" Check
"3/8 in. Steel Spike" Check
"Washer" Check
"2 in. diameter" Check
"Brass" Check
"[exact stamping]" Check
If you find the monument intact, the comparison should be exact. If the monument has been damaged or degraded (as happens), there is a surplus of descriptive elements that can be compared to what remains, even it is is just a munged-up 3/8 in. spike or even just a 3/8 in. drill hole in an existing concrete surface.
Compare my example to:
"Nail and Shiner" or
"Nail in McMillan Washer"
Neither of those really serve the purpose. "McMillan Washer" assumes that the surveyor will know what sort of a washer I standardly set. Even today that would appear to be an unwarranted assumption.
There is a big difference between an iron rod and a rebar. While surveying in South Arkansas, I found a pile of iron rods (most of which were the aforementioned "sucker rods). There were also rebar corners. There is a difference, and they weren't always described properly, making it very difficult when coming behind the previous surveyors.
Yes, if one is surveying in an area where rebars are not the virtually universal boundary marking in use, "iron rod" should not be used. Either "deformed steel bar" or "steel rebar" (with diameter noted, of course) would be better practice. Unless you can see the mating end on a piece of sucker rod, I'd think that "smooth iron rod" or "smooth iron dowel" (of specified diameter) would do it.
Shawn Billings, post: 344348, member: 6521 wrote: I've thought about that too, RJ. We say "iron rod" when referring to steel rebar, but it is less precise. Locally surveyors understand "iron rod" to usually refer to steel rebar. Some have taken to using the term "steel rebar". Along with that, locally, due to our oilfield history, there is "sucker rod". The sucker rod is the rod that goes into the well from the pump at the wellhead and is used to pump the oil out of the ground. Typically these types of stakes are specifically described as "sucker rod" even though "iron rod" would technically work.
I'm thankful for professional discretion that allows surveyors flexibility in these things.
You mean a plunger coupling? 😉
I usually call for reinforcing bars when applicable.
Plunger coupling...
I didn't expect you to get personal. o.O
Looks good Kent, nice stamping.
Can't use something like that here, wouldn't make it through the winter.
