I'm not quite sure when times changed, but I remember as a young rod man, having to open grate tops as part of my job during the design survey. But I guess my current field crew didn't have the same training. Because for the life of me I cannot seem to make them understand that the information below the grate is critical to design of a drainage system. Every design topo lately I have had to return myself to gather the information. Am I asking too much of the crew to pop the tops and get the info? Their response is yes they can't open them with the tools provided. A sledgehammer, a manhole puller & a pick axe. And three grown men. 
Are there any other tools available?
We've got a bumper mounted hand crank gantry/wench but most of the time the guys refuse to bother with it since it weighs more than the average grate or manhole lid and is a PITA to use. As to the crew refusing to gather the needed information, I don't think that that would be an option if they were working here. There are enough hungry survey field crew types looking for quality employment that our guys are more than willing to do what is necessary to keep their jobs. That being said perhaps your crews require a bit of mentoring as to the proper and safe methodology of opening said flat grate inlet. You obviously have trusted and reliable techniques since you are able to go get the info yourself.
Randy
I think that they just need to be shown how one time. Add a shovel to the tools and you should be all set for most manholes.
I'm not sure what sort of information you would expect from the grate shown in the photo. If I was doing it I would note, on the plan, that the catch basin was full and inverts were not available.
Dtp
I live in a small community, but I do not open grates or manholes. If it is required, I call the city to get the city employees to open them. As Foggy stated, I would noted the same as he did on the photo.
We've actually stopped pulling grates if they don't come off fairly easy. Fairly easy means a number of good square thumps with a 10lb. sledge while applying a good amount of pull with the MH gaff. It's pretty evident if they're loose or not, some do rust tight,
A project at Woodring Municipal AP in Enid, OK is where we stopped getting nasty with them. The taxiway had an inverted crown and the grated inlets ran down the center of the taxiway. We popped one off and it fell into the catch basin...12' deep. An active airfield safety crew had to scramble to close the taxiway and get FAA NOTAMs issued for the pilots.
It didn't cost me any money and the crew, a piece of rope and a MH gaff were involved in the hour long grate retrieval. The AP Manager didn't talk to me for a couple of days. Like I said, if it won't come willingly or there's a 'traffic' concern, we opt for a mirror and "skinny tape" procedures. :-$
One of the survey monuments we carry is a "SIB" ~ Standard Iron Bar (With our surveyor's Number stamped on it Kent 🙂 ) which is 4 feet long x 1" square and pointed on one end.
By sticking it in a hinged CB grate it is relatively easy to open the grate via the grate's hinge and do one's thing to get the outlet/inlet pipe's invert with a rod.
Getting it levered back requires a bit of strength and firm footing.
It gets a bit tricky if the grate is not hinged and Pythagoras takes over .......... and Viola ! the darned square thing will slip down on the diagonal width on resetting the grate.
Fishing for grates at a depth is not a recommended sport !
If in doubt, we put a small strong chain down one slot and draw it back through an adjacent hole and tie it to a sturdy anchor point so we won't need to go scuba grating.
One day in the 1960s I was on a crew when my surveyor uncle dropped a SIB down a sanitary sewer manhole's square hole much to his 'consternation'.
It stayed there as the sewer was about 20' deep.
Cheers,
Derek
A shale bar works, but the real problem is a grate is rectangular and unlike a round manhole lid it is rather easy for it to fall into the inlet. Hazardous work and it cannot be left open.
Standard procedure here is the client that requires the info provides a backhoe and crew, first to lift the grate off safely, then the crew cleans out debris so that all inverts, pipe sizes and types can be measured recorded and then they safely replace the grate.
I have never seen a hinged grate in PA or NJ.
Paul in PA
The type of grate pictured is always opened.
Many are "locked" (screwed shut) so an appropriate tool is available in each truck.
If a lid is stuck/unable to be opened that is a different story.
I will note that, while not as spectacular as a machete injury, I have seen more lost time injuries from pulling on a stuck or heavy manhole than any other single injury mechanism. I take special care to train new people about proper lifting techniques.
Confined space measurements are an extra for us. We can do them, but won't unless negotiated.
Some of them come up so easily and others take a good 5min to crack open. WPHS gets involved if your head goes in/near the hole and there is generally traffic concerns as well. Standard detail includes plotting Stormwater, Sewer, Telecommunications, Electricity, Gas and Oil from records (As-Constructed drawings) but it's extra for underground service locating/measuring.
Lifter + Hammer + Crowbar + Shovel is enough for 95% of the lids. We have a special MH leaver lifter for some stubborn ones which gets another 4.9%
The other 0.1% we've actually broken the lid/grate to get to the information. We only go to that effort for Jobs for the Local Council, when requested (Drainage Network upgrades means that data is a must) so they replace the lids. Or make safe until they replace the whole thing.
Our local Councils are also really good with blocked ones, like pictured. I can shoot off an email to the correct contact at council and in under 2 days they would have had a vacuum truck out there to clean out the drain and usually the surrounding ones too.
We have never pulled them off...only circle lids. Why pull them off when you can easily slip a tape measure through them for the invert. If they are full of water or sludge we're certainly not cleaning them to get the info. The town can come do it if they want it and they usually do. And we certainly not going in them to check anything...need confined space training, etc for that. 3-4 people are killed locally each year going into manholes or drainage structures. Not worth the risk.
fattiretom, post: 346897, member: 6039 wrote: We have never pulled them off...only circle lids. Why pull them off when you can easily slip a tape measure through them for the invert. If they are full of water or sludge we're certainly not cleaning them to get the info. The town can come do it if they want it and they usually do. And we certainly not going in them to check anything...need confined space training, etc for that. 3-4 people are killed locally each year going into manholes or drainage structures. Not worth the risk.
This.
And remember square lids can fall in unlike round lids.
And lids do oxidize shut and then forget them. The client can get the town can open them if needed.
And never go into a sewer mh, the fumes can be deadly. (Or so I've been told)
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The corners of the square grates break a lot easier then anything, the round manholes, not really. I can't remember working for any company that let you get away with the "rusted shut" spiel very often.
fattiretom, post: 346897, member: 6039 wrote: We have never pulled them off...only circle lids. Why pull them off when you can easily slip a tape measure through them for the invert. If they are full of water or sludge we're certainly not cleaning them to get the info. The town can come do it if they want it and they usually do. And we certainly not going in them to check anything...need confined space training, etc for that. 3-4 people are killed locally each year going into manholes or drainage structures. Not worth the risk.
I'm not asking them to go into the structures, only open them to get a good view of whats going on down there. With the design of the these particular grate tops, it is extremely difficult to a view of the inverts. Not to metion the fact that they are full of water. I agree in that I'm not cleaning them, but I don't think taking the lid off is feeling around the sides for pipes is asking too much of a crew now days. And certainly if the information can be gathered without removing the top I'm fine with that. In fact I find that the issue only comes up when there is a problem and they can't determine whats going on down there from the topside.
There is a fair amount of elasticity in the industry about what information is gathered in the course of underground utility location. I am a fan of solving the entire system if possible, research, dye tabs, shovels, whatever it takes. I have learned that some companies do not appreciate the time involved to do so.
If amoung other tools thay use their hands to grab the grate make damn sure they are not wearing rings.
If amoung other tools they use their hands to grab the grate make damn sure they are not wearing rings.
Please don't make them feel around in there with their hands. I have pulled many many grates and manhole covers and have found every thing from used tampons to used needles. Very dangerous. If I can't see the bottom, I get a measurement to the bottom of whatever I can feel with a stiff tape measure or a even cut a sapling and stick it down in there and feel around. Most engineering firms I work for are ok with this. If they need more info then the "owner" of the box is contacted to clean it out.
Ron Lang, post: 346915, member: 6445 wrote: I'm not asking them to go into the structures, only open them to get a good view of whats going on down there. With the design of the these particular grate tops, it is extremely difficult to a view of the inverts. Not to metion the fact that they are full of water. I agree in that I'm not cleaning them, but I don't think taking the lid off is feeling around the sides for pipes is asking too much of a crew now days. And certainly if the information can be gathered without removing the top I'm fine with that. In fact I find that the issue only comes up when there is a problem and they can't determine whats going on down there from the topside.
"... I don't think taking the lid off is feeling around the sides for pipes is asking too much of a crew now days."
Well - I certainly do! That is just wrong.
My crew and myself always open the storm sewer manholes,to get direction and measure downs to the inverts.We have a Pipe-Mic if needed.
Sanitary sewer manholes not so much,usually to deep to worry about.We never go down the manholes.
We have even used a scanner to scan the inside of a manhole.
I started surveying in 1974.I always went down every manhole,including sanitary sewer manholes.Much more accurate pipe sizes,and measure downs back then.
I took him to mean "feeling around" not with hands but with with a designated "stinky rod", used only for that purpose.