Dear Honorable Representatives,
I believe a great disservice to the Public will be effected if the proposed bill goes through.
Surveying is a profession that protects the private lands of the public. Anybody can measure, but measuring is only a tool for the surveyor. After the measurements are made, the surveyor can then do his or her job by applying the necessary legal principles to the evidence found and provide an opinion on the location of the boundary using the sames lights as a court of law would. Surveyors have no binding authority, but as as Justice Thomas M. Cooley said: "a surveyor serves in a quasi-judicial authority". The surveyor is usually the last set of eyes on the boundary problem (as most boundary issues do not go to court) so there needs to be a learned professional to apply the law in the way he or she believes a court of law would do.
Right now, anyone with a handheld GPS thinks that they can perform a survey, believing that boundary surveying is ALL about measurement. But as mentioned before, after the measurements are made, then the professional judgement and application of Statutes and case law begin. This is not a task for beginners.
There will be an untold amount of boundary controversies which will arise from the state allowing unqualified people to survey boundaries. This will cause much consternation with the landowning public when they see how unstable their boundaries have now become. And remember, hundreds of years of common law will not go away just because unqualified people are now able to represent themselves as boundary professionals. They still have rights to their true boundaries, though there may not be anyone left who has the knowledge and experience to establish these for them.
I pray you will remove Surveying and Mapping from this bill.
Respectfully,
John S. Adams
Professional Land Surveyor #4469 (FL)
Dear State Representative,
It was brought to the attention of Florida Surveying and Mapping members this morning that the state legislature is considering deregulating surveying and mapping. In my opinion, this would be a mistake. Surveying and mapping is regulated, in some form, in all 50 states. The reason commonly cited for regulating surveying and mapping is “protecting the public”, meaning that incompetent practice of surveying and mapping causes considerable risk to the public. The risk manifests in many ways, ranging from boundary disputes from inaccurate boundary surveys, to damage to infrastructure from inaccurate engineering surveys. Surveying errors can go unnoticed for years and even decades, making it critical that surveys are performed correctly the first time by competent, licensed professional.
Surveyors have worked since this country was founded to monument land boundaries and create the “paper trail” of legal descriptions and plats that are the foundation of land ownership. This is no small task and the legislature has set the bar very high for a person to enter this profession. Under current Florida law, a person is required to obtain a 4-year degree in Land Surveying, serve as an apprentice to a Land Surveyor for 4 years, and pass a 4 part examination, to become a licensed land surveyor. Additionally, surveyors are required to maintain continuing education credits on a biannual basis. The Board of Professional Land Surveyors hears claims of negligence and/or incompetence by its members and has the authority to suspend or revoke a license when necessary. It really doesn’t make sense to take this profession from this high of a standard, to deregulation.
Most people think of land surveying as a technical exercise, and while surveying has become highly technical over the years, it’s really the ability to analyze boundary evidence that is the reason behind the surveying license. This ability is developed during the years of education and experience required to become a professional land surveyor. The often quoted Justice Cooley, who served on the Supreme Court of Michigan from 1864-1885, noted that surveyors serve in what he called a “Quasi Judicial” capacity, meaning that land owners will generally accept a surveyor’s opinion in a boundary dispute, rather than taking the dispute to court.
My concern is deregulation will erode the quality of surveying, erode the quality of land records and land title, degrade the value and trust put in surveys by the public, and generally do more harm than good. In addition, deregulation removes accountability to the public from the equation, making fraud and incompetent practice a likelihood. I respectfully ask the Legislature to reconsider deregulation of this profession.
I wrote mine before I read Steve's. Good see we both in Justice Cooley plugs.
Leave it GC to insert his P&R crap into this post, with his girlfried BL backing him up........
> Leave it GC to insert his P&R crap into this post, with his girlfried BL backing him up........
You forgot to mention Tommy and yourself....
What is the standard now...
If I want to be a PLS in florida?
Do I need a 4-year degree? 2 Year?
What is the standard now...
Typically, 4-year degree + 4 years experience + exam
Tommy Young, Your Comments are Out of Line
Tommy, While trying to get licensed in Florida I once attended an entire Florida Board meeting. I assure you that getting caught with a survey that doesn't meet MTS in the State of Florida is NOT where you want to be.
Also, while it may be that some jacklegs are getting over using old, rummy PLS's for their rubber stamps, if this comes to pass, that's all that the surveying profession will be.
Stephen
rberry,
Gc has a good point as do the others who have posted (TPR etc.). This is a potential problem for the profession and it appears not to be aimed at only Fla. Although you may not agree with his comment on conservatives this may be a good time for some to continue the discussion without comments about comments that get no where.
For Andy J.,
Most posts, so far, have hit on issues that are very important to PSM's. Since publicly elected officials are concerned with their constituents opinions this maybe a opportunity for the public officials to see what type's of comments are being made by the public, for the public on this site. Not just any public Joe but Professional Surveyors and Mappers.
With additional effort by the one's supporting the deregulation they may even attempt to search this board for real problems, their consequences and the final outcome due to the, at times, incompetent survey practices.
The next round of elections may prove very disheartening to officials who have failed to listen.
Has anyone heard about further talk of the same in Texas?
"......I know that all these license hoops we're required to jump through has done very little to help the surveyor that tries to act professional."
The blame for that goes to the IMPLEMENTATION of the regulations, not the regulations themselves. If regulatory bodies would pursue those who break the rules more vigorously, perhaps the system would work better. Having no system at all is not the answer.
Likewise, "....Passing a test is little indication of professional competence."
One could argue the point, but really, do you want the one's who CAN'T PASS THE TEST to be doing surveys as well?
There is no push to deregulate surveying here. We are grappling with a trio of bills that would consolidate agencies. Two of them would combine the surveyors with engineers, architects, and landscape architects under a professional design board. The other bill would exclude the engineers but be called the Architect's board. I think there is some room to negotiate on the specifics of each of the bills and that is where we are currently.
Thanks James.
edit: I stand corrected...and thanks again for the reminder.
Mr. Berry,
Like it or not, it's a fact that deregulation of industry is a central plank of the conservative platform. That makes it a partisan issue. Typical shortsighted policy, as they go about it in a completely indiscriminate manner - yet as usual guys like you don't bother to think about the impacts until they hit home - and by then, it's too late.
They tried a version of this in AL. It will never work.
> One could argue the point, but really, do you want the one's who CAN'T PASS THE TEST to be doing surveys as well?
They are anyway.
I'm not advocating doing away with the licensing boards. I just think that we can all admit that they have pretty much been a dismal failure in regards to elevating the profession.
DEY TUKK UR JERB
Mr. Smith of the EPA, just what exactly is a "Guy like Me"?
rberry
If you were an ultra far out liberal like GC, you would understand his lingo!
rberry
Keith, thank God I'm not...and they ban TDD...there are a couple of others that need to be banned for good....freakin "Storm Troopers"