A "Bench Mark" (two words) is a vertical mark in the ground that has a known elevation by which you will determine other elevations.
A "benchmark" is a "standard against which something can be measured or assessed."
At a certain level I think one could consider a "point of beginning" or "point of commencement" and could also consider a "bench mark" as being a sort of (one-word) "benchmark"; but that is not really a survey term except for the elevation Bench Mark.
You would find the point of commencement, by looking at public records. In this case the subdivision map that established lot 59 (or whatever lot that was). You would also need to compare it to other corners of the lot and perhaps the point of commencement for that subdivision to make sure you have the correct lot-corner monument. You may even need to reestablish that lot corner in order to have your point of commencement in the ground.
If you think you're going to survey in your lot using GPS, you need to really know what you are doing. There probably isn't a real spherical coordinate on your point of commencement, so you need to do relative bearings and distances from it. You also need to use 'survey=grade' equipment if you want to get accurate. I wouldn't advise setting your corners, but if you can get close, at least you could visually see the approximate limits of your property. You might also dig for corner monuments. I wouldn't rely on monuments, however, without a surveyor. Another concern, is the adjoiner's property lines. You need to keep in mind that your 'property line' is also someone else's. If those points don't match, you need to know which is senior to which.
If I were you, I would be using only my intellect to be able to see your approximate corner locations (look at the fences if there are any, and you might not have to go through this exercise).
You might have a rudimentary idea of how to survey, but to get down to establishing the actual corners, you need to have a knowledgeable land surveyor out there.
> ... I have a engineering degree, in civil engineering to be exact, can I design and work on helicopters?
Of course not Mr. Livingstone, civil engineers aren't as intelligent as mechanical engineers. Now if you had a PhD in mathematics or were a theoretical physicist, they're smarter than ME's.
He is applying a common misconception. The thinking that knowing trigonometry, is the sole knowledge-base of a land surveyor and anyone who has had calculus can do boundary surveying. It's not a matter of intelligence per se as it is a technical knowledge of boundary, boundary law, and some math.
The best way to learn
[sarcasm]how to survey is to hire one and follow him around all day asking questions. You should also tell him, when he finds something, tell him that you don't think it's right. Try, also, to look through his instrument when he isn't looking and hold on to the tripod real tight. When he's all done, tell him you'll mail his check as soon as your settlement comes through.
Now you'll know all you'll ever need to know about surveyors and what they do.[/sarcasm]
I'm happy to have my clients around to be honest. As long as you don't touch my 'quipments, I'll take you through the whole process. Maybe you'd benefit from hiring one and tagging along.
GPS. It ain't all the same
GPS is a nice handy dandy tool.
You can buy a hunter's grade gps like a Garmin E-trex, etc for 100.00. You can go to a stake in a field, set it on top of the stake, let it settle down, and SAVE that point. Then, put it in your pocket, walk around a bit, return, and repeat. After you save it like that say, 10 times, you can go across the field and repeat it on another stake.
Then, you can take it home, and download all the shots you took. I'd guess that they all would be within 10 feet of each other. IF you took the average point, in that pile of 10 coords, and the average in the second pile of coords, then you probably would have an accuracy of 3-4 feet, between the shots. (That is, now measure with a tape, between them).
Surveyors grade GPS costs around $25,000 each. We who buy these units, also have to learn how to use them, and now our accuracy at each point is down around 0.05' each. With an error potential, of 0.10' between any 2 given points. This would be with RTK GPS. There are ways to bring this down some, such as post processing, and opus etc.
I know how to fly a helicopter. You have a twist throttle in the left hand, and collective pitch control, when you pull up on the handle. In your right hand, you have Cyclic Pitch control. Then, with your feet, you have "rudder" which collectively changes the pitch on the tail rotor.
But, even though I know where these controls are, and what they do, I have NOT put them all together. I would not be a safe pilot. In fact, I would NOT fly your helicopter, because I would surly kill myself, and you too, if you were in it with me. Putting it all together, takes work, time, practice, and that is why you need a surveyor. You also would NOT want me to "Fix, or repair, or maintain" your helicopter. Even though many of the parts are simple. Getting it together, is what takes the investment of several years. IF we told you the basics, we might get you close or in the vicinity. If you crash a survey, you will not die, (but you may meet Mrs Dominant Matriarch, of the 3rd lagoon, and get a boatload of her opinion!) But you will have a wrong answer. Maybe 500' off, or 50' off, or 5' off, or .5' off, or 0.05' off. It takes a surveyor, with knowledge, and experience to quantify his errors, manage them, and make it all fly. Welcome to our world. Want to save some money? Hmmm drop your accuracy. Most folks can get within a few miles. If that is good enough for you, you don't need a survey. To have a manageable error level, takes knowledge, and experience. All rotary wing pilots make mistakes. Little ones, don't matter. The landing gear can adsorb a bit of shock, in a hard landing. But, if the Jesus nut falls off, well, get ready to meet Jesus. It takes a surveyor to quantify these errors. And, to know the difference between the Jesus nut, and the landing gear bolts.
We all like to tackle new things. Is this your new thing? Get ready to invest time and energy.
We are not pulling your leg.
We made the investment.
Nate
Even if successful, you will never know if the markers you find are actually the bounds of your property.
Someone that knows what they are doing could probably find some evidence with a compass, cloth tape, metal detector, and a shovel. Just takes a little common sense. But as I said before you will be making an assumption as to what that evidence represents....
If you didn't take the advice given on the other board, I doubt you will gain anything further here.
Surveying DIY
> If you didn't take the advice given on the other board, I doubt you will gain anything further here.
Just because we undervalue our work (you can probably find someone to come out and find your point for a couple of hundred bucks), doesn't mean you can do it yourself.
I know that it would seem to be the case (since we charge less than a fence builder or a landscape maintenance team), while you can build a fence yourself, surveying is a different animal.
1. My main purpose in this exercise is to learn something new. Can you fault me at 58 yrs. old for wanting to learn?
2. The cost of most likely over $600 for a surveyor to do this job is cost prohibitive for me at this time. Especially since this is to simply know the end (side to side) border lines of my property. I am not putting up a fence or anything else. Just want to know where my property begins and ends.
3. I have heard from my co-workers who have hired a surveyor that when he was finished he could only guarantee that his findings were 80% accurate. For $600, I expect 98% accuracy!
4. I understand your comments about my need for better understanding of the process first and that I should leave this kind of job to the “professionals” but if I did that with everything in life, I would have been destitute a long time ago.
5. I have already visited my county seat and the Recorder of Deeds Dept.
They told me that nowhere in my county has any iron rods or any other kind of corner marker been implanted into the ground. They just don’t exist.
6. Just spoke with the surveyor that did my development several years ago and he contradicts what the Recorder of deeds office told me to say that he thinks there is a metal stake/rod right at the curb that he knows of. This would mark the corner.
7. I got a kick out of a few of you guys that seem to think that comparing making medical decisions with your body without a physician to surveying my property lines accurately is somehow apples to apples.
8. Sorry Nate but you don’t know how to fly this helicopter. It is a tandem rotor Chinook that has no tail rotor. Our other big seller the V-22 flies like a plane and counter rotates to helicopter mode to land on an aircraft carrier. (I now regret mentioning that I build helicopters) ?
9. “imaudigger”, I never got any advice from the other board. That board was full of spam posts. Obviously poorly managed. The only advice that board gave me was to watch out for your comments.
For you old-timers, here is your trivia question of the day. How many feet does a quarter-chain equal? (a.k.a. rod, perch or pole)
>My main purpose in this exercise is to learn something new... I am not putting up a fence or anything else.
I'm not a surveyor. I've studied a lot of the topics in the field, and have found this forum interesting and I've learned a lot.
The fact that your purpose isn't to find where to put a fence, how big an house addition, or where you can put a swimming pool will relieve a lot of the worry expressed above. If it's only to estimate how much of the grass to mow, your risk isn't large. Just remember that there remains uncertainty in your boundary even after finding monuments because of various things that haven't been checked.
>80% accurate. For $600, I expect 98% accuracy!
I'm not sure what this percentage measures. It almost sounds like the probability of having measured to the right point, regardless of the measurement tolerance. A good measurer will probably express his tolerance as +/-xxx at 95% confidence limits.
The big risk isn't a few hundredths of a foot, it's measuring to the wrong point because of something not noticed in the history of the property (have you checked every deed and easement of your lot and all its adjoiners since the original subdivision plat?), or because of insufficient checking distances from corners on surrounding properties to look for discrepancies. There have been threads on this forum with horror stories where someone found an iron and assumed it was their corner when it wasn't the right one.
> the surveyor that did my development several years ago ... thinks there is a metal stake/rod right at the curb
I would start by trying to find that, not the point of beginning. If you find one monument, you then know a lot better where to look for others.
>apples to apples.
No, it isn't apples to apples, since one involves your life and the other only money. But those can be large sums of money when something is constructed in the wrong place.
>For you old-timers, How many feet does a quarter-chain equal?
That's not just knowledge for old-timers. I think 99% of the people reading this forum (including non-licensed) know that's 16.5 ft. There are a lot of surveyors who routinely work with old records in chains.
Here's one for you: how long is a vara in Texas? How about other places?
Here's another: does your state use US Survey feet or International feet?
Ok, you are an honest seeker of learning and truth.
1. Give details. Any detail you leave out only invites flames. Where you are is the biggest one.
2. If someone told you that no monuments were set anywhere in your county, and they were right, 80% sounds like an outstanding number. Whoever told you either one of those things were likely wrong, and possibly making fun of you.
3. No, you can't do this as a hobby. You can learn about it, but read a book first, so you know what we are saying. We are very helpful to many amateurs.
4. If $600 is too much, you don't need a survey. Like I said, that number undervalues what we do.
5. Again, you never asked a real question. You asked for an education about our whole profession. I will explain it in a single post if you tell me how to build a helicopter in a single post.
6. Honest, direct, specific questions with adequate details are almost always answered here with respect and good information. This is not what you have done.
I have to chime in here. As a licensed surveyor we can only provide our professional opinion (just as a medical doctor provides his/her opinion of what is causing an ailment) of where the boundary lines are. Where the boundary actually is, can only be decided by the courts or by an agreement between property owners. If you (or a neighbor) disagree with a surveyors opinion, you get a second opinion. If you still disagree you might decide to come to a boundary resolution with your neighbor or take the issue to court. I don't understand why people think surveying is a simple task. Most people are willing to pay a plumber 120+ an hour even though they know feces flows downhill, yet they won't pay a surveyor $600 dollars for a job that they don't have a clue about and that could take anywhere from 1 day to years to make sure the job is done correctly. What did I miss here? I guess I should have become a plumber instead of wasting 6 years and 40k in college education to get my license.
Cy
You have been provided much sound advice so far. It takes a truly intelligent person to admit they do not understand after much information has been provided. Be an intelligent person and hire a local surveyor.
Lesson number one: Everything put into writing is not necessarily true. For example, some very old plats may indicate a subdivision is exactly 1320 feet wide by 2640 feet long because the owner had a deed saying he owned the east half of the southwest quarter of a specific section of land. Those of us who work with this type of thing regularly know that the true original boundary will be something different from this on all sides and will not be precisely square. So, if the outer boundary of your subdivision is not correct, neither are the magic numbers provided to tell you street widths and lot sizes. Adjustments must be made that are determined by local knowledge as it specifically applies to just that one subdivision. In some cases, the error has all been put at the "far end" of the subdivision as it slowly developed outwards from a core area resulting in the end lot being many feet longer or shorter than what the record indicates. In other cases the error is systematic and everything you measure today is very close to a common percentage shorter or longer than record. So, if you don't understand the picture, you can't get the little picture right.
Lesson number two: GPS is nearly worthless in DETERMINING where lot corners are located in tree-filled suburbia. Measurements are close to the last thing used in a DETERMINATION. Evidence of a variety of sorts is what provides the basis as to what should be measured and what those measurements actually represent. The relative location of multiple points being found by use of GPS-type equipment may speed the measurement process so long as reliable data is being obtained and not influenced negatively by readings taken in areas with major multipath issues. Those who do not work with survey grade GPS-type equipment regularly, and unfortunately many who do, do not fully comprehend the limits of their equipment. Many threads have occurred on this board discussing these critical issues to assist each other in providing better service to our clients.
Lesson number three: Six hundred dollars is the minor issue. Getting a correct answer is the major issue. You are probably talking about a property worth in excess of $300,000 and you are worried about an expense equivalent to putting a new set of tires on your car. You may only put 10,000 miles per year on a vehicle but surveyors may put 100,000 miles per year on theirs, so we know about putting new tires on a vehicle.
Mechanical Engineers vs. Civil Engineers
Being an Electrical Engineer myself the joke in school always was that:
Mechanical Engineers build weapons and Civil Engineers build targets 🙂
> 1. My main purpose in this exercise is to learn something new. Can you fault me at 58 yrs. old for wanting to learn?
Not at all. But asking professionals in a field how to do their job... well, that has a bit of stink to it.
> 2. The cost of most likely over $600 for a surveyor to do this job is cost prohibitive for me at this time. Especially since this is to simply know the end (side to side) border lines of my property. I am not putting up a fence or anything else. Just want to know where my property begins and ends.
Then I suggest that you wait until you can afford it.
> 3. I have heard from my co-workers who have hired a surveyor that when he was finished he could only guarantee that his findings were 80% accurate. For $600, I expect 98% accuracy!
Where does this "80%" number come from? Are ANY of your co-workers on the licensing board of your state? Do they know anything about least squares, error ellipses or error of closure? Talking to your co-workers about surveying accuracy is like talking to my friends about helicopter engineers...
> 4. I understand your comments about my need for better understanding of the process first and that I should leave this kind of job to the “professionals” but if I did that with everything in life, I would have been destitute a long time ago.
> 5. I have already visited my county seat and the Recorder of Deeds Dept.
> They told me that nowhere in my county has any iron rods or any other kind of corner marker been implanted into the ground. They just don’t exist.
Your Recorder Of Deeds is FLAT WRONG. What is the Land Surveyors License Number of this person? How long did they work in surveying? Stop taking advice about surveyors/surveying from non-surveyors.
> 6. Just spoke with the surveyor that did my development several years ago and he contradicts what the Recorder of deeds office told me to say that he thinks there is a metal stake/rod right at the curb that he knows of. This would mark the corner.
Well duh.
> 7. I got a kick out of a few of you guys that seem to think that comparing making medical decisions with your body without a physician to surveying my property lines accurately is somehow apples to apples.
If it harms somebody (affects their property) due to your negligence or ignorance ("surveying" or "measuring" your own property to the harm of yourself or your neighbors) then it is an appropriate analogy.
> 8. Sorry Nate but you don’t know how to fly this helicopter. It is a tandem rotor Chinook that has no tail rotor. Our other big seller the V-22 flies like a plane and counter rotates to helicopter mode to land on an aircraft carrier. (I now regret mentioning that I build helicopters) ?
> 9. “imaudigger”, I never got any advice from the other board. That board was full of spam posts. Obviously poorly managed. The only advice that board gave me was to watch out for your comments.
> For you old-timers, here is your trivia question of the day. How many feet does a quarter-chain equal? (a.k.a. rod, perch or pole)
16.5 feet.
Seriously, you should call the surveyor back that did the subdivision plat/plan... you are out of your zone.
Carl
You come in with a chip on your shoulder telling us how smart you are and then you aren't expecting any guff for implying that our field is somehow inferior to your field. What kind of reaction did you expect? Most the posters here are professionals in this area, and someone who thinks that only a highly-experienced land surveyor would know the conversion for a "quarter-chain" is showing lack of understanding for our area of expertise.
You clearly don't understand the comparison to a "doctor" or some other specialty. If you think that whoever made that analogy in any way thinks they are the same as a doctor, then that makes me think you are being cynical instead of trying to understand their point. But that goes with being in some way "superior" I guess.
Many of the above posters tried to answer your questions in as plain of terms as they could. Perhaps you need to study the answers a little more closely instead of being so defensive.
...and what the heck would a "recorder of deeds" know about what kind of monumentation is out there in the ground? Maybe they need to study helicopters a bit more.
I'm sorry, I felt that you were just a bored surveyor trying to stir the pot. I see now that you are serious with your solicitation of knowledge.
I agree with you. $600 is way too expensive to have a surveyor mark the limits of the property you just purchased. Especially considering it would only be 80% accurate.
I wonder if they thought you wanted your entire parcel surveyed rather than just one line? There are some guys that think they need to survey the entire block just so you can have a single point set!
Did you call around and see who the cheapest price was? You never know, you might be able to find a really good price.
