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Finding propery boundry that only references distance from Corner of Qtr of Qtr of a section?

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jevs656
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I have some property that was surveyed in 1960 according to the deed. It is specified as 20 acres of land according to the deed and the measurements from the deed work out to a hair over 20, but it was sold to me as 18.5 acres. It is a perfect rectangle (655.4' x 1330'). I can only assume the road easement or something adjusted this down to 18.5? I am not sure where they got the 18.5 number other than maybe easements of the road on the west boundary? I have not asked the county yet, but I will tomorrow.

Aside from the acreage question I have a couple questions. I need to find the boundary lines because I want to see where I am going to put a house.

1) Would they have put metal stakes on this property during the 1960 survey that could be found?

2) Basically this is in the SW 1/4 of the SW 1/4 of Section 18. The description for actual measurements is "Beginning at a point in the West line thereof 74.5 feet South of the Northwest corner thereof..." From there it just maps out a perfect rectangle that is 655.4' south of that to 1330' West of that.
My question is....how do you find that actual NW corner of the 1/4 1/4 with any precision? There is no reference to an actual object or land feature etc.

The west side of the property line is a paved county road now. I am sure it was no more than a gravel road in 1960. I assume the original boundary line is in the middle of the street.

 
Posted : March 8, 2016 10:36 pm
holy-cow
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To end up with about 1 8.5 acres either the 1330 is missing 50 feet along its length or the 655.4 is missing 100 along its length. Neither seems normal.

 
Posted : March 8, 2016 11:01 pm
scott-ellis
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Did you not get a survey when you brought the 20 acre tract?

Yes there should be something marking the boundary, could be rocks, trees, iron pipes or irons. Whatever is marking the boundary, I do not think you have the equipment to measure 1330 feet accurately or the experience to see what happen to that 1.5 acres. It could be the road, could be a mistype in the deed, could be a Senior Junior rights issues, they could have kept 1.5 acres for their house, the list goes on and on and on...

You should get a Surveyor in your area to survey your tract they will be able to answer your question after they do the research and field work.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 8:18 am
dave-karoly
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The northwest corner of the southwest quarter of the southwest quarter of Section 18 is the south 1/16th corner between Section 18 and Section 13 (in the Township to the west). If it is not already established, it would be set midway between the section corner on the south and the quarter section corner on the north. I'm a little confused, you say your property runs west but it reads like it starts on the west side of the section.

What was set in 1960 could vary widely from wooden stakes to iron rods to iron pipes. You would need a copy of the Survey to know for sure. A local Surveyor probably would know a lot better than we will.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 8:56 am
MightyMoe
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SW4SW4 is in itself a red flag, it should be Lot 4 of Section 18; the 1330 feet might well be the closing chains along the south line of the section, and the figure should go to the east not to the west, there are lots of headscratching stuff just in your description. I'd hire a surveyor before building anything.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 9:05 am

vern
 vern
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jevs656, post: 361261, member: 11400 wrote: "Beginning at a point in the West line thereof 74.5 feet South of the Northwest corner thereof..." From there it just maps out a perfect rectangle that is 655.4' south of that to 1330' West of that.

Wouldn't that be in the adjacent section to the west?

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 9:30 am
jevs656
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SW 1/4 of the SW 1/4 was actually a typo. Sorry 🙂
Should have been SW4 of SE4 in section 18

Anyway, thanks for all the help, but I was making one huge screw up in reading the description. The words "EXCEPTING THEREFROM".

Basically the legal description describes the section to the north that I do not own and then I own whats left of the southern portion of the rest of the qtr qtr. It all makes sense now. I talked to the mapping guy at the county. The road does take a little away from the calculated acreage also with the right of way but makes total sense now that I know the dimensions I was reading are not of my part, but rather the part I don't own.

He was also able to give me info from the north property survey and the east survey in the mid 90's that might lead me to some specified markers specified as steel rod to look for. One is described as a rock and a rod that they found when they did their survey on my SE corner. If I can find any of these, I should be able to measure out pretty close without a real survey. There are fence lines and tree lines on the boundaries also and I do not plan to build right up to the edge anyway.

So, all is good and I learned something new....how to read a legal description and make sense of it!

Thanks!

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 9:35 am
ddsm
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jevs656, post: 361351, member: 11400 wrote: I talked to the mapping guy at the county. He was also able to give me info from the north property survey and the east survey in the mid 90's... If I can find any of these, I should be able to measure out pretty close without a real survey. There are fence lines and tree lines on the boundaries also and I do not plan to build right up to the edge anyway.

So, all is good and I learned something new....how to read a legal description and make sense of it!

Jevs,
You should ask the County GIS guy for Latitude and Longitude for your corners...then you can use your Garmin GPS to do your measuring. Glad you stopped by.
DDSM:whistle:

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 9:58 am
dave-karoly
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jevs656, post: 361351, member: 11400 wrote: SW 1/4 of the SW 1/4 was actually a typo. Sorry 🙂
Should have been SW4 of SE4 in section 18

Anyway, thanks for all the help, but I was making one huge screw up in reading the description. The words "EXCEPTING THEREFROM".

Basically the legal description describes the section to the north that I do not own and then I own whats left of the southern portion of the rest of the qtr qtr. It all makes sense now. I talked to the mapping guy at the county. The road does take a little away from the calculated acreage also with the right of way but makes total sense now that I know the dimensions I was reading are not of my part, but rather the part I don't own.

He was also able to give me info from the north property survey and the east survey in the mid 90's that might lead me to some specified markers specified as steel rod to look for. One is described as a rock and a rod that they found when they did their survey on my SE corner. If I can find any of these, I should be able to measure out pretty close without a real survey. There are fence lines and tree lines on the boundaries also and I do not plan to build right up to the edge anyway.

So, all is good and I learned something new....how to read a legal description and make sense of it!

Thanks!

That is dangerous. What happens is you use the incorrect monument or mismeasure then 10 years after you built your house the neighbor gets a survey, reveals an encroachment, you have your theory, they have their theory, if you can't work out your differences then you submit it to the Judge. That only costs $100k or so not to mention destroying your relationship with your neighbors.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 10:03 am
jevs656
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Dave Karoly, post: 361356, member: 94 wrote: That is dangerous. What happens is you use the incorrect monument or mismeasure then 10 years after you built your house the neighbor gets a survey, reveals an encroachment, you have your theory, they have their theory, if you can't work out your differences then you submit it to the Judge. That only costs $100k or so not to mention destroying your relationship with your neighbors.

We are talking about ~20 acres. I would be more concerned if it was a smaller lot without any survey markers of any newer surveys to the north and east, if it was not a near perfect rectangle near matching section lines, or if I was building anything close to a line, or it referenced anything that could move, etc.. I will be so far off the south line and many many 100's of feet from any other line. If it was that far off, the county road and map and section lines would not match anything. I know your not seeing here what I am seeing completely, but nothing is worrying me at this point. Everything described matches up. I am not building anything near property lines. I want to be as isolated as possible but still catch the higher elevation. This puts me in the center south section for a home.

I will do a rough "survey" of my own based on what I know only if I can find any markers noted in the other surveys. If not, then I may go ahead and pay for a survey. I will be calling for a price either way. If it is reasonable I will do it just to know exact locations and make more permanent markers etc. It is pretty obvious "about" where the lines are now based on the terrain and having fences on all sides and the road on the west.
I am getting kind of curious as to whether or not I own the south and north fences or not...I am learning a lot from this.

I do need to go to the mapping department and they will give me some much better info, but I have to go in person. I will inquire about lat and long coords. That would get me within a couple meters to at least look for markers.

Thanks again.....I am going to call a survey company now to get a quote.

Attached files

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 10:49 am

scott-ellis
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jevs656, post: 361378, member: 11400 wrote: We are talking about ~20 acres. I would be more concerned if it was a smaller lot without any survey markers of any newer surveys to the north and east, if it was not a near perfect rectangle near matching section lines, or if I was building anything close to a line, or it referenced anything that could move, etc.. I will be so far off the south line and many many 100's of feet from any other line. If it was that far off, the county road and map and section lines would not match anything. I know your not seeing here what I am seeing completely, but nothing is worrying me at this point. Everything described matches up. I am not building anything near property lines. I want to be as isolated as possible but still catch the higher elevation. This puts me in the center south section for a home.

I will do a rough "survey" of my own based on what I know only if I can find any markers noted in the other surveys. If not, then I may go ahead and pay for a survey. I will be calling for a price either way. If it is reasonable I will do it just to know exact locations and make more permanent markers etc. It is pretty obvious "about" where the lines are now based on the terrain and having fences on all sides and the road on the west.
I am getting kind of curious as to whether or not I own the south and north fences or not...I am learning a lot from this.

I do need to go to the mapping department and they will give me some much better info, but I have to go in person. I will inquire about lat and long coords. That would get me within a couple meters to at least look for markers.

Thanks again.....I am going to call a survey company now to get a quote.

One very important thing you need to check on is there any easements on your property. Do not build on an easement, easements can go back 100's of years as well.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 11:14 am
Tom Adams
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jevs656, post: 361378, member: 11400 wrote: We are talking about ~20 acres. I would be more concerned if it was a smaller lot without any survey markers of any newer surveys to the north and east, if it was not a near perfect rectangle near matching section lines, or if I was building anything close to a line, or it referenced anything that could move, etc.. I will be so far off the south line and many many 100's of feet from any other line. If it was that far off, the county road and map and section lines would not match anything. I know your not seeing here what I am seeing completely, but nothing is worrying me at this point. Everything described matches up. I am not building anything near property lines. I want to be as isolated as possible but still catch the higher elevation. This puts me in the center south section for a home.

I will do a rough "survey" of my own based on what I know only if I can find any markers noted in the other surveys. If not, then I may go ahead and pay for a survey. I will be calling for a price either way. If it is reasonable I will do it just to know exact locations and make more permanent markers etc. It is pretty obvious "about" where the lines are now based on the terrain and having fences on all sides and the road on the west.
I am getting kind of curious as to whether or not I own the south and north fences or not...I am learning a lot from this.

I do need to go to the mapping department and they will give me some much better info, but I have to go in person. I will inquire about lat and long coords. That would get me within a couple meters to at least look for markers.

Thanks again.....I am going to call a survey company now to get a quote.

Just note that the lats and longs, may or may not be within a couple of meters. Those values are for the GIS Dept showing who owns what and where and very probably aren't based on a land survey. (I think Ole Dan was kind of stirring the pot earlier, and not really serious). But you're right, it might help you find a place to start looking. Most of us have seen real dangerous assumptions made off of faulty GIS coordinates. those fences you mentioned my be a better indication of where to look.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 11:33 am
jevs656
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I did inquire about that. There are no recorded easements that anyone at the county knows of, that show up in the title work, or that were disclosed. There are no utilities or power lines or anything except the overheads at the road. The ground is pretty rocky, so underground stuff is expensive and there are no new developments or anything to get to with utilities. I have to start from scratch with a well and septic.....again 🙂

Everything is looking about as good as it can with a piece of property so far. The only challenge is going to be....how far down can i dig before hitting bedrock at the location of the basement. I got very lucky with my current home which is about 3 miles away. I only had to break out a small section....

I found out that I know the guy at the county from many years ago. He was very helpful and gave me approx GPS coords to all the markers and also about where the SW marker should be if it is surveyed. This is the one corner that does not have a more recent survey to describe or show a marker.

The good thing is that this is at the road and the road is straight north and south right on the quarter line, so measuring from the NW marker should get me pretty darn close. It is also nice and level all the way down the road here.

He was pretty confident that if I can find the markers he gave me, that they should be pretty accurate since multiple surveys verify at least two of the 4 (NE & SE corners).

Anyway, I am still going to call for survey quotes....he gave me a couple pointers on that as well.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 11:58 am
holy-cow
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Lucky for you the GIS doesn't look like this Google Earth image.

Note how S. Tennessee gets torn off and moved over, plus the multiple images of the same thing.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 12:12 pm
jevs656
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Yeah. That looks like fun.......That is too cramped up for me. I commute 50 miles each way to avoid that. They are screwed when the zombies come.....just kidding 🙂

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 12:24 pm

imaudigger
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I know of several houses that were built smack dab in the middle of an old dedicated public highway, which wasn't more than a faded set of wheel tracks.
Didn't show up in the title report because it isn't on file at the recorders office.

 
Posted : March 9, 2016 4:46 pm