Went to record a plat this morning. The property is located in a county where I rarely work. Had the client not had a darn good reason for wanting me to do the work I would have turned him down. But, we did the work so it was time to record the plat.
I show up with everything in order. The first thing the lady behind the counter says to me is "Where did the Planning Department sign off on this?"
Me: "The planning department has no say in this. The tract is 104 acres, is exempt from all the planning regulations, and contains the certificate that it is an existing parcel that does not create a new street or change an existing street."
Her: "So. The Planning Department has to sign off on everything."
Me (as politely as I know how): "No ma'am. This does not require approval from anyone."
Her: "Well everyone else takes everything and gets them to approve it before we can record it. You go on over to their office and see if they won't look at it sometime next week and you can come back then and record it."
Me (again as politely as I know how): "I'm so sorry but I am only in town for a few minutes this morning. Seeing as how this map does not require the review or approval of anyone else I would very much like to record it now."
Her: "Everyone else takes everything and gets them to approve it."
Me: "I would prefer to proceed as required by state law, not by what everyone else does."
About that time someone comes out of an office in the back and tells her that what I am describing is indeed exempt from review and they have to record it.
Her: "Everyone else takes all their maps and gets them approved."
Me: "And what would I tell my client (he was standing there beside me watching) if the Planning Department decided they didn't want to approve the map. He has every legal right to record the map exactly as it is being presented. What happens if they say 'No they will not approve it'?"
Her: (speechless but dumb look on her face)
Me: "That is exactly why I prefer to go by what state law requires rather than what everyone else does."
Don't know about you folks but it really irks me when someone else tries to justify doing the wrong thing by telling me what everyone else does.
Y'all have a nice weekend.
Larry P
We had several counties doing the same thing in central Virginia. Got a House of Delegates member to request an opinion from the Attorney General. He came back with a very strong opinion that approval was not needed and we haven't had any problems since.
Larry we get the same treatment in my county , Except they call it an exception map and it must go through planning . Exception means "exception to the definition of a subdivision" and must be reviewd by Planning. they are going against State Law and but do it anyway . I try not to rock the boat as I will not get anything threw when we do have to go planning .
Also I did a job in county I never worked in for a good client . Job went through Planning very smoothly . When I got to the Deed office to record.. Lady pulls out a ruler and starts measuring my border . She says I do not have 1/2" on the left side . I say but its pretty close and your just going to scan it anyway . she no State Law Says border is 1/2" no less . I say I drove 2 hours to record she says to bad. I was more than un-happy .
Fundamentally, the functions of recording and approval should be independent.
You should be able to record any document that was legible and not obscene - your grocery list or memoirs if you wanted to pay the fee.
The recording of any document, of course, would in no way imply approval by boards or anyone else. The approval could refer tot he recorded document if it was satisfactory.
> Larry we get the same treatment in my county , Except they call it an exception map and it must go through planning . Exception means "exception to the definition of a subdivision" and must be reviewd by Planning. they are going against State Law and but do it anyway . I try not to rock the boat as I will not get anything threw when we do have to go planning .
>
> Also I did a job in county I never worked in for a good client . Job went through Planning very smoothly . When I got to the Deed office to record.. Lady pulls out a ruler and starts measuring my border . She says I do not have 1/2" on the left side . I say but its pretty close and your just going to scan it anyway . she no State Law Says border is 1/2" no less . I say I drove 2 hours to record she says to bad. I was more than un-happy .
I feel your pain. Guess nobody at that R-o-D office attended the class that told them they had no responsibility for nor were authorized to check borders on the map.
As for not rocking the boat, I understand. But, that is part of why we find ourselves in this mess. Not enough of us have stood up and demanded that they go by the law. The wording is very specific and explicit.
A few years ago our local planner went to the R-o-D's office and told them they would not record any document of any sort unless and until they asked his permission. They called me and we both got a good laugh out of the conversation. Here in Ashe, they go by what the law says, not by what some power hungry idiot "wants".
Larry P
> She says I do not have 1/2" on the left side.
You should've told her about the "margine of error" and would not accept her "rulers" measurement unless she could prove it was properly calabrated....
The way I see it; the city and/or county is all about collecting fees, and they haven't had much of that in a looooong time. They want to take advantage of as much of that as they can. The review fee here, for a simple boundary line adjustment, is $1700+:excruciating:
> Fundamentally, the functions of recording and approval should be independent.
>
> You should be able to record any document that was legible and not obscene - your grocery list or memoirs if you wanted to pay the fee.
>
> The recording of any document, of course, would in no way imply approval by boards or anyone else. The approval could refer tot he recorded document if it was satisfactory.
Bill,
I agree with almost everything you said. The exception is where you say "not obscene". Who is to decide what is obscene? I certainly do not want anyone else passing judgment on documents as to whether they met that criteria.
I say, if a map has an original seal and signature of a properly licensed surveyor, record it. Period.
If the information shown on the plat was incorrect or fraudulent, then the surveyor will almost certainly pay the price by losing his or her license. When the planners do stuff that is outside their legal authority, there seems to be zero accountability.
Larry P
Larry
The Clerks of Superior Court in Georgia just had a pretty major overhaul of the legislation covering their duties. The following will get you to the SAMSOG website and a recap of cahnges in the requirements. http://www.samsog.org/associations/905/files/SAMSOG%20Modification%20Procedures_6.21.12.pdf
Or you can go to SAMSOG.org and click on the link to the full bill which was passed.
Andy
In your corner Larry. Heard all my life, not to fight city hall, but to preserve our liberty and control of government we need to hold all in line. They might think they can continue, are secure in their positions and free to flex their muscles when they wish only because so many have rolled over and tolerated it. We need to complain to our elected officials every time they step out of line or they fail to rein in the employes who do. People in government want all to believe they should not fight city hall, but that is the way to loose control. Sometimes I believe that taring and feathering then riding them out of town on a rail should be an option available to the people to control public officials. Term limits at all levels would be good for the Nation.
When I got back from RVN, I was driving a truck for a living. Was talking to an owner of about 10 trucks when one of his trucks came into the yard. His comment of needing to fire that driver made me ask why. He said that he had learned the hard way that if you keep a driver over one year, many would begin to think they owned the truck and be a problem. That is true the world around and especially in government work and politics.
jud
what they do is verify that it is indeed exempt...hey I'm with ya Larry but around here, they wont record anything without planning dept approval and they take a ruler out and measure the border repeatedly. Lately, they have been requiring cad files. I simply send them locked pdf's. so far noone has noticed the difference.
Larry
Part of the problem comes from other surveyors, lawyers, planners and such who tell the Recorders that such and such must be done prior to recording. They are pushing their personal agenda. This is what they would prefer the rule to be. The Recorder, or an underling, then takes that as gospel and runs with it. Then you come along and tell them something different in the same authoritative tone as the first fellow who told them that the opposite was correct. Suddenly, they are supposed to care about something they know nothing about.
I have found at least one Register of Deeds who believes she is the only one in the area following proper procedure relative to recording deeds for non-aliquot tracts. She is absolutely wrong. But, try to convince her otherwise. NO WAY!
Larry
> Part of the problem comes from other surveyors,
Do any of them post here?
"other surveyors"
We cannot change others, we can only change ourselves.
This has been a difficult lesson for me, I have not yet fully learned.
Larry
Thanks, Andy - I hadn't seen that. I'll have to make sure I keep a copy of that handy.
>
> You should've told her about the "margine of error" and would not accept her "rulers" measurement unless she could prove it was properly calabrated....
>
I was thinking the same thing...is she authorized to determine that measurement? Maybe hand her a metric scale, and tell her that the law was based on a metric inch and you are well within the minimum border.
😉
I have been trying for 18 months to record a survey to transfer 3/4 acre from one property to another. I had a note "Parcel xx does not meet zoning and must be held with adjacent property (parcel yy)"
I was told it could not be recorded without planning approval since that note could only be used with lots of substandard area and my lot was too large. I needed to create a R.O.W. and build a road to the property.
Then a year later I'm told to put on a note: " PARCEL No. xx IS A SUBSTANDARD LOT AND IS TO BE JOINED WITH PARCEL yy IN PERPETUITY."
That was 3 months ago. My submission was lost and I had to resubmit for the 4th time.
Those of you that live in basically functional societies (states) should count your blessings.
I'm going sailing for a 5 day weekend to appreciate why I live here.
Have a great holiday.
Ga Recording Law
Andy I'm afraid the engineers in N Ga have pulled another one over on us.
There are only 2 post on the SAMSOG site about this and none mention the thing that I have the most problem with. That is the requirement for a TIFF file on a CD.
I dont have a scanner that will scan even an 11x17 much less a 24x36. Looking at $5 grand to do a 24x36. Needless to say all my plats from now on will not be larger than 11x17.
> what they do is verify that it is indeed exempt...hey I'm with ya Larry but around here, they wont record anything without planning dept approval and they take a ruler out and measure the border repeatedly. Lately, they have been requiring cad files. I simply send them locked pdf's. so far noone has noticed the difference.
I know you know what the law says. But for the benefit of those in other states who may not, here is a small portion of GS47-30. This is the law that governs the recording of plats in NC.
However, if the plat contains the certificate of a surveyor as stated in a., d., or e. above, then the plat shall have, in addition to said surveyor's certificate, a certification of approval, or no approval required, as may be required by local ordinance from the appropriate government authority before the plat is presented for recordation. If the plat contains the certificate of a surveyor as stated in b. or c. above, nothing shall prevent the recordation of the plat if all other provisions have been met
My certificate was as stated in C above. Silly me wanted nothing to prevent the recordation of the plat.
I also see nothing in the rules that allows the county or city to "require" cad files. I am glad to email a polyline file of my boundary to help the tax mapping office. That is good for me, my client and everyone involved. Just don't try to make it a condition of whether or not I can record a plat.
Have a great weekend.
Larry P
> I have been trying for 18 months to record a survey to transfer 3/4 acre from one property to another. I had a note "Parcel xx does not meet zoning and must be held with adjacent property (parcel yy)"
> I was told it could not be recorded without planning approval since that note could only be used with lots of substandard area and my lot was too large. I needed to create a R.O.W. and build a road to the property.
> Then a year later I'm told to put on a note: " PARCEL No. xx IS A SUBSTANDARD LOT AND IS TO BE JOINED WITH PARCEL yy IN PERPETUITY."
>
> That was 3 months ago. My submission was lost and I had to resubmit for the 4th time.
>
> Those of you that live in basically functional societies (states) should count your blessings.
>
> I'm going sailing for a 5 day weekend to appreciate why I live here.
>
> Have a great holiday.
I feel your pain Larry. Sadly when we were down there a couple of years ago we saw too vividly a small portion of the mess you live with every day.
Enjoy the sailing.
Larry P
Yes, it was probably the tuxedo
> You should be able to record any document that was legible and not obscene - your grocery list or memoirs if you wanted to pay the fee.
Actually, do you really want the public records cluttered up by every crackpot's idea of a legitimate document? There has been a spate of fraudulent instruments recorded by folks who are either members or associates of the Sovereign Citizen movement: land patents, bogus transfers, you name it.
It may well be that the gal at the counter thought Larry's tuxedo was more than a little weird and wanted to get a second opinion on his document.
When I worked at a private firm I had a boss whose philosophy was "go along to get along" with the County folks.
One day I was down at the County and another firm's Engineer was talking to the plan checker wearing a suit and tie. I noticed the BS on his plan check was dropped just for the asking. I learned a lesson there; sometimes you have to be serious and don't take no for an answer (he was polite, professional and firm). My boss was kind of a clown, dressing up like Dick Tracy on Halloween and stuff like that. Everyone liked him but they didn't seem to take him seriously, I wonder why?
A few years before he did me a favor and laid me off a client privately told me that another firm he sent work too was much better about getting stupid stuff taken off of the plans. That kind of hurt but was true. Believe me the lay off shocked me but ultimately worked out for the best.
