So I get a call yesterday from First Am flood Elevation Services which is basically a middle man website that charges a fee to owners to connect them with surveyors. I frankly don't care if someone is able to make a few bucks to provide this service, half the US economy is based on middle man mark-up. But what gets me, is that I gave her a cost to do this work here in WA state, only to have her balk at my cost and tell me that it is too high for their budget. Wha....? Lets see, I have to do the work, I have to pay the crew, I have to buy the equipment and fuel the truck, I had to put in 8+ years to get licensed,I have to get re-certified every two years and pay for continuing education, I have to pay for the website from which she located me, I have to complete all the paperwork, I have to certify said paperwork, I have to create the file and send the billing, and I have to suck up 100% of the liability of the end product yet 1st Am get to determine the budget? Why do they even have a budget? What makes this even funnier is that their own website states that 'the lowest price is never the considering factor'. In light of my conversation with their rep, this statement appears to be an outright lie and I know for a fact 1st Am is calling around to find the lowest rate. Perhaps some of you might think this is acceptable but that in my case, the budget was easily less than half of my cost proposal. I doubt my cost was out of line. FEMAs paperwork reduction act states that this form requires 3.75 hours of associated work to complete "each response". I am going to presume that a single response is one section and not the entire form. There are 5-6 sections (A-G plus adding photos) which require a licensed individual to complete. Total expected time is 22.5 hours of office/field mix. We figure a bit less based on experience--Basically about 5 hours field and 5 hours office. 1st Am's expressed rate would only allow for about 3-4 hours of total work and even if this is FEMA's intended response time I believe it is totally out of line. The sad part is, 1st Am said that in neighboring counties they have several surveyors which are doing these for the expressed cost.
Frankly, we rarely do ECs anymore and defer right to a LOMA which provides superior end results for the client (if the structure is able to be exempted). The turn around is a day if you can do an eLOMA, and they are very simple and quick to do.
What I want to know is if anyone out there working for First Am or a similar clearing house is actually making money on these products (and is it an appropriate professional rate) and how many hours you are averaging. Do you include travel? It appears to me that surveyors are not the only ones with a diminished view of the value of our services.
So much depends on the particular circumstances that trying to determine an average price is pretty meaningless. In my home city most of the ECs I do take me about an hour in the field and an hour in the office. But when I get out into the county it can be anywhere from an hour to a day or more.
Many years ago I learned to identify cheap scapes and price shoppers in less than thirty seconds on the phone. Can't guess at how much time/money that saved me through the years.
Don't let it get to you. Rely upon word of mouth and repeat clients who know the risky cost of cheap services. Waste no time at all on no profit work. Your business benefits greatly by passing these people on to your competitors who have not learned this lesson.
Right on. Don't let it bother you in the least. No one other than me is going to decide what I feel is an appropriate cost for any service I choose to provide. No one is going to force me to provide a service at any price.
In just the right situation, I may be generous with someone for a reason of my choosing. Not often, but it happens. No third party, especially, is going to get me to do so. It is based on my own free will.
I concur about pricing being our own choice. I have already responded and said there is no way I would do it for that cost. I am sure someone out there has less pride or more time on their hands than I do but I would wager they are underestimating their time and/or ignoring the liability. I'm not too bothered by getting underbid as it has become a daily occurrence.
What I am curious about is how much time folks are really spending on these. I think this, as with most jobs, the time perceived and the time spent are two different animals. Jim mentioned he can handle a slam dunk one in 2x60 minutes. No doubt he has a system and is hitting it on the way to another job. Hell it takes me 30 min to get the GPS out, fired up and talking (assuming I have a horizon). Once in the office its another 30 to DL pictures and format them to fit the form, let alone gather and review the firmette, review the field data or notes, determine a sufficient Lat/Long, decide upon which structure type...then do the monkey work of filling in all the blanks, printing, stamping, scanning and transmitting. And I still haven't charged any time to set up a file, create and send a contract or billing and communicate with the crew. Does this get written off as nonchargeable time?
In looking back at the form, there are really only the first 4 sections (A-D) required to completed. My experience shows that 10-15 hours is probably a good, albeit high average, or at least a starting point from which to subtract. simple slab on grade in a perfect world close to the office might be 2 and 4 hours. complicated homes with deep crawlspaces to inspect, lots of decking, convoluted floor plans, numerous vent openings, appurtenant utilities and poor GPS visibility might be closer to 6 and 6.
Can you be a middle middle man?
Take the job for budget and sub it to the 99 guy, LOL.
You are giving them too much credit ... It says $95.
EC cost breakdown
Um... yes...someone is already gouging clients out of $4 and you haven't even started the job!
Lets do the math and presume nube owner/operator doing a job 10 miles away. and typical survey equipment and relying on real world costs (per Google)and 20 work days in a month (IE no vacation which is out of the question anyhow) and working out of house which is fully funded by working spouse (or parents?)
- ...
- ...
- ...
.
$95
-$4.60 fuel @ 16 mpg - portal to portal.
-$5.67 for daily auto insurance FL average=$1,476 (prob not commercial policy)
-$5 daily cost of advertising (presume craigslist ads & website only
-$5 daily cost for cell/data plan (presume $70 base+$30 for data pkg per month)
-$10.65 daily cost for a used GPS ($7k amortized over 3yr @ 6%)
-$7.60 equipment in truck (legs, hubs, tribrachs, staff, prism ($5k amort for 3yr)
-$22.8 daily cost for robot (solo operation) not being used but still requires funding.
Total profit is $33.68
The job had better get done in less than 4.3 hrs in order to earn FL minimum wage of $7.79/hr
Turn the tables on them!
Did you find out what price it would take from you in order for you to get the job? Then later, call them up and get a quote of their price for doing an elevation certificate in a similar area and you will know what their charge is for being the middleman. Then just for kicks, throw in that you know a surveyor in that area that will do it for the first price they gave you, plus just enough to bring the cost about 10 dollars lower than the price they just gave you and tell them that their price is too high and ask them why.
Turn the tables on them!
That is why I like surveyors. Think and compete!!!
22 hours to complete ONE FEMA form?? Maybe the Pacific Northwest makes it that much more difficult, but my flat florida brain can't even comprehend that.
I suppose if I could charge 2-3 thousand dollars for one, that would make sense, but then I'd be worried about what more lucrative work I'd be missing out on while I'm busy for three working days on that one project.
I'm lucky in that I work in a pretty small geographic area where every single property is already in a well defined AE or V zone. I don't have to do any flood plain / flow management for my projects.
I'm sure I lose a lot of those to the cheapo $95 dollar guys but that's okay with me. they usually come back across my desk.
Andy
I lost a job once to a broker from Miami. The realtor, who wanted to use me, but was overruled, called me back to ask to look over the el cert because it wasn't working for them. Turns out, they used the wrong datum, didn't contact the flood plain manager for a BFE (left it blank), left about 1/2 of the required fields blank (things like the address, county, map number, index date, etc.), and where the building photos were supposed to be, was a image that said "We appreciate your business", or some such phrase ...
I help but wonder how these companies stay in business. All the time they must waste fixing their mistakes must eat away at their minimum wage-like earnings.
Ya, that's odd because a few years ago I did one and I got hammered within a week because I had the road direction labeled wrong (NW instead of NE).
They don't fix their mistakes, they just keep moving forward, there's a sucker born every minute.
They know that the person they just screwed isn't likely to raise hell.
We received an e-mail today from FirstAm as well. Wanted to get a quote for an EC over 8 hours away from our nearest office. Town house on the banks of a lake with no BFE stated on FIRM map. Gave them a quote and haven't heard anything back. Guessing they didn't like our numbers!
> What I am curious about is how much time folks are really spending on these.
Typical one for me is in Zone AE around a lake. Usually a walk out basement. For my fee, I will prepare an EC and submit the necessary data and forms to FEMA for the client. I do not attach photos to the EC for use in determining insurance rate as my intent is to remove the insurance requirement. I submit to FEMA an MT-EZ (or similar info entered online), a Firmette, Copy of Subdivision Plat, Copy of Deed, Copy of tax map, Elevation Certificate
<30 minutes - Take call and get info from client
<30 minutes - Gather data from courthouse (I am 2 blocks from it). Deed and tax map
(I have digital copies of plats at my office)
+/-30 minutes - Average travel time (total)
>90 minutes - Static GPS onsite, measure house elevations, check shot on lake level
+/-90 minutes - Office work: job files created, data reduction, firmette, fill out
forms, prepare bill, scan, submit online to FEMA
<30 minutes - packaging and mail to client
+/- 5 Hrs Total
Billed out as a full day.
Time could be a little more or a little less due to variables in the process.
17.05 Solicitation of Work
1. The licensee shall not offer to pay, either directly or indirectly, any commission, political contribution, gift, or other consideration in order to secure work, except when the licensee is securing salaried positions through employment agencies.
2. The licensee shall not falsify or permit misrepresentation of his or his associates' academic or professional qualifications. He shall not misrepresent or exaggerate his degree of responsibility in or for the subject matter of prior assignments. Brochures or other presentations incident to the solicitation of employment shall not misrepresent pertinent facts concerning employer, employees, associates, joint venturers or his or their past accomplishments.
3. The licensee shall not indulge in publicity that is misleading or advertise in a self laudatory manner.
4. The licensee shall not supplant, nor attempt to supplant, directly or indirectly, another professional engineer and/or professional surveyor in a particular engineering or surveying project, after contracts have been awarded to such other professional engineer and/or professional surveyor. The furnishing of informative brochures regarding the licensee's firm or employer is not considered an attempt to supplant.
5. A licensee, acting individually or through a firm, association, partnership or corporation shall neither request, propose, or accept an agreement, contract, or commission for professional services on a "contingency basis" under which his professional judgment may be compromised or when a contingency provision is used as an inducement to promote or secure an agreement, contract, or commission, either for future commissions or projects, or for performing additional services on the project involved.
6. The Professional Engineer is encouraged to seek professional employment on the basis of qualifications and competence for proper accomplishment of the work. This procedure restricts the engineer from submitting a price for services until the prospective client has selected, on the basis of qualifications and competence, one engineer or firm for negotiations; however, competitive price proposals may be submitted or solicited for professional services only if all the following restrictions are met:
a. The prospective client has first sought statements of qualifications from interested licensees, and
b. Those licensees chosen by the client on the basis of qualifications and competence for proper accomplishment of the work (not to exceed five) have received in writing a comprehensive and specific Scope of Work, and
c. When the Scope of Work has been prepared, signed and sealed by a licensed professional engineer who has attested to the completeness and adequacy of the Scope of Work assuring that it fully identifies and describes the factors affecting the required engineering services, and
d. Assurances have been given by the prospective client that factors in addition to price were considered in selecting the professional engineer, and
e. The engineer that sealed the Scope of Work, or his firm will not be allowed to submit a price proposal.
7. The Professional Surveyor is encouraged to seek professional employment on the basis of qualifications and competence for proper accomplishment of the work. This procedure restricts the surveyor from submitting a price for services until the prospective client has selected, on the basis of qualifications and competence, one surveyor or firm for negotiations; however, competitive price proposal may be submitted or solicited for professional surveying services only if all the following restrictions are met:
a. The prospective client has first sought statements of qualifications from interested licensees, and
b. Those licensees chosen by the client on the basis of qualifications and competence for proper accomplishment of the work (not to exceed five) have received in writing a comprehensive and specific Scope of Work prepared by the client or the client's representative that completely describes the factors affecting the required surveying services, and
c. Assurances have been given by the prospective client that factors in addition to price were considered in selecting the professional surveyor.
GOOD THING THAT $95 COMPANY ISN'T IN MY STATE. I THOUGHT FLORIDA HAD SIMILAR, IF NOT TOUGHER RESTRICTIONS?
I think your time is about right. Nice to see someone is being realistic. I also agree about the loss of a day. 5 hours on a job usually means the rest of the day in not billable. It sounds like you are doing a LOMA or eLOMA. ECs are not required for LOMA and yes, they are very easy. We charge half for a LOMA because the only requirement is to acquire the LAG to the structure, stairway or deck footing. No other data is required. Time on site, inc travel can usually be done otw to another job but I still end up on site for at least an hour. Again, firing up the GPS, walking and assessing the site,doing a sketch or taking a few notes. Some times we cant get a lock on the waterside of the home so this requires a bit of leap-frogging. Office time is usually doable in an hour or two. You still need to