This is a neighbor neighbor thing, more than the boundary location going on here.
It's the north/south center quarter section line. The required section corners have been found but just recently (last five years). Everything doesn't line up exactly (no surprise). My clients neighbor wants to rebuild a 40 plus year old fence. This fence meets all the requirements for boundary by acquiescence under Utah law. There are other issues such as the neighbor built up a road on his side of the line which causes runoff water to pond about a ½ acre of my clients property (no drainage culvert). OK, I know the drainage law and so does my client but so far he hasn't pushed it. So, according to my measurements the fence is on the aliquot line at one end and onto the neighbor about 5 feet at the other end (670 foot long line). So I talk to my client and he is OK with relocating the fence to the 'survey line' if the neighbor will put a culvert in his road so that the flooding stops. So we thought it was worked out.
That is until the County GIS kicked in. The neighbors boys (men) went and marked the line and it's about 5-10 feet over into my client’s property from where the survey line is. So I ask the neighbor what the boys used to measure from to mark the line and he didn't seem to know. So I go lath the line where my measurements (quarter section breakdown), put it so they could see. We are a ways off of placing any survey markers yet (still trying to get agreement).
Well the neighbor sees me and flags me over and proceeds to tell me that my line is all wrong and wants to know if I used the County GIS. No I didn't use the GIS and you shouldn't either because it's the GIS that is off. He ain't buying it. He showed me the printout and where the line is and it's obviously further into the field than my line. I'm just a surveyor too dumb to use the official County GIS printout from his view. I tell him I've seen GIS lines 200-300 feet off from the section lines. He still ain't buying it. So I get him to hand me the map. On the other side of his land (section line) I show him how the line is way off into his land from the old section line fence (which is good) and also a point on a new fence further north where we found the old stone quarter corner and he witnessed it a couple years ago. The quarter corner is 8 feet into his field from a new fence and the GIS line is at least 10 feet off the new fence on the other side. I say you know where this corner is and it's not on the GIS line is it. He still ain't buying it and he walks away.
I told him in the process of this whole conversation that he should get his own surveyor and have them contact me and we will see if we agree on where the survey line should be. He says he ain't putting in any drainage culvert either. Jeez, I hope he calls the county and asks them how accurate the GIS is (I told him there is a disclaimer)? Maybe he'll just rebuild the new fence where the old fence was and keep enjoying seeing my clients field flooded. I don't know for sure but he will probably be shown the drainage law at that point. So he loses both issues, he doesn’t get the small triangle of land and he must put in a drainage culvert. I know my client isn't going to accept the “boys” layout of the GIS line from the printout.
How many times has this scenario played out over the last 20 years since GIS arrived. I'm all for an accurate GIS and the survey work that needs to be done to get it right. But until then, well the County GIS isn't quite right. Heck I'm one the the surveyors filing section corner records in the statewide effort to get the GIS right (at the present progress rate it will take a long time). The neighbor wasn't buying that from me either. How could I possible know the County GIS isn't accurate. He is going to need to hear it from someone else other than me. I hope the county gives him the right answer. The county GIS isn't online, you need to visit the offices to get one of these printouts.
So I suppose this project went into a holding pattern as far as I'm concerned.
We are all just a pack of professional liars being paid to lie to the neighbors so our clients can steal their land.
That pretty well sums it up.
When people will only believe what it is they want to hear, no amount of proof is enough.
Years ago I had a client claim that I was not set up on the line connecting two points. I first showed him pointing the total station towards one point and setting the reading to zero. Then I rotated it to 180 degrees and told him to look at the target. Of course it was dead on. He said that must be a trick. So I spun the gun vertically to point back to the first target and told him to look again. Of course it was dead on. His very loud, defiant words were, "I ain't gonna believe no damm machine!"
The psychology of it is the County GIS is more authoritative than some know-it-all Surveyor hired by the neighbor who is a jerk trying to steal my land. I've been the know-it-all too.
probably wrong here, but i would asssume that there is a note on the county print out that states that it is only for tax and planning purposes and not to be used for boundary determinations. if there is not a note close to that on the print out then i would talk to the county about it and, to get their attention, tell them that there is a possibility that they may be liable for any damages that may occur from the presentation that their map shows precise boundaries without a survey. also, w/out that note, their print out may be considered surveying w/out a license.
check out our GIS maps at tarrantcounty.com and you will see a semi-good note regarding the uses of the maps.
And now somehow we have allowed the gis folks to start reviewing our surveys as if they are somehow qualified to do so.
I am from the gubment I am here to help (help keep my paycheck that is).
> We are all just a pack of professional liars being paid to lie to the neighbors so our clients can steal their land.
>
> That pretty well sums it up.
>
> When people will only believe what it is they want to hear, no amount of proof is enough.
>
> Years ago I had a client claim that I was not set up on the line connecting two points. I first showed him pointing the total station towards one point and setting the reading to zero. Then I rotated it to 180 degrees and told him to look at the target. Of course it was dead on. He said that must be a trick. So I spun the gun vertically to point back to the first target and told him to look again. Of course it was dead on. His very loud, defiant words were, "I ain't gonna believe no damm machine!"
Other people, I find often, suck.
The county GIS is just the Utah AGRC (statewide GIS). The AGRC has the following disclaimer on their website:
This product is for informational purposes and may not have been prepared for, or be suitable for legal, engineering, or surveying purposes. Users of this information should review or consult the primary data and information sources to ascertain the usability of the information. AGRC provides these data in good faith and shall in no event be liable for any incorrect results, any lost profits and special, indirect or consequential damages to any party, arising out of or in connection with the use or the inability to use the data hereon or the services provided. AGRC shall not be held liable for any third party’s interpretation of data provided by AGRC. AGRC provides these data and services as a public service. AGRC reserves the right to change or revise published data and/or these services at any time.
Our county isn't all that up on GIS. They have a GIS guy that is really the county IT guy since the county can get grant money for a GIS and not for IT (you figure it out). We have another department or two that can tap the (county GIS) in house and they are the ones advising the populace and printing these sheets. These printouts are just an image with no disclaimers.
OK, the neighbors printout must be dated. They update the section info and we are now into Version 2 as of May this year. The section lines are based upon the BLM GCDB which is getting tuned up every couple years or so based upon the work of land surveyors (including me in my county) filing of geodetic corner records (accurate lat, long, Ht), much done with a little grant money from the AGRC. My county won't spend a dime otherwise (no budget for surveying).
So I get into the State AGRC GIS and look at the current section lines. Well the line in question has moved and is a lot closer to the truth, might even be on the other side of the fence in question. It still isn't right as all the real locations of the section corners are not into the database yet. When they are and the GCDB crank is spun the printout will be about spot on IF the back ground image is located right.
If I talk to the neighbor again I'm going to suggest he get a new printout from the county and compare. Will the light come on, probably not. Now I know why he wanted to move the line to the survey line (his GIS printout), he thought it was a lot further into my clients field.
The gis community checks your maps?
We provided an area to the gis manager. He was impressed that the his was already so close. He made no change to the gis.
I am waiting for the day when a gis causes lack of notification to an abutter with legal standing and it ends up in court.
One of my pursuits is informal mediation. I have had two instances where the entire thing started over a GIS 'property line'. On one of them the offended party is getting his pile of papers together for the attorney. It seems the City worker zoomed in and showed him the line was 'perfectly on the edge of the sidewalk'. Now he wants fences moved. I showed him pins and lead and tack that work but he isn't letting go...
For the most part our GIS folks are knowledgeable and helpful. As with any group you always have a few who are too full of crap to realize it...
Depending on the source of the image you might see about a meter of shift if the image is in ITRF coordinates and the surveyed section corners are in NAD83.
How many times has this scenario played out over the last 20 years since GIS arrived. I'm all for an accurate GIS and the survey work that needs to be done to get it right.
Many, many, many times. The latest for me was a presentation that was going to the state; it showed a small town 150' into the abutter all the lots on the west side of the town and an alley were completely shown into the ranch to the west with the section line running along a street on the east line of a stack of blocks. I showed the title people the plat with a 1/4 section corner on the west line of the town and a section corner north and south with the town to the east, but the engineer CAD jockey told me he was using the PLS. I told him he wasn't, that I AM and asked what did he mean by using the "PLS"? Near as I could tell he meant using the GCDB or the county GIS or something downloaded off the internet. GAWD!!
Anyway, I sent "correct" lines to them and then they said my lines created an "overlap", they just can't let go of the CAD, GIS lines. 🙁