Does anyone in Los Angeles County know any history of Grooves which were cut in the back of old sidewalks in the City of Pasadena? I remember finding several of these (as opposed to the common cut cross) in the early 2000's with Pasadena City Engineer field book references. The Cut Groove which I have found most recently is in the back of an old portion of sidewalk, no reference found, within 0.04' of a tract line which 2 other surveyors have established by proration instead of by record angle/ distance per the original early 1900's senior tract. The Groove is either 0.04' east of senior record, or 0.04' west of a proportioned line and divides 2 very small commercial lots. Like anything else without a tag, the Groove could be something or it be nothing. Aside from the task at hand, a general history of the Grooves would be great to hear about.
In Washington state it is quite common to cut a groove in the top of curb on the extension of the side property lines. There is rarely any mention of them on the plat. I believe they are required by public works as an aid to installing utilities.
In postwar Sacramento County, CA, when the area was growing explosively, it was common to cut a gash (the local term for a chiseled groove) at the back of curb or sidewalk in new subdivisions. They weren't mentioned on the plats, but they're direct evidence of the original lot locations.
The practice was still in use by at least some companies into the 1980s, and maybe later.
Thanks, Mark and Jim! I'm loving this site and the wealth of knowledge everyone brings to the forums. Should have joined years ago...
You might search the CLSA forum site. I believe there were posts on that subject a few years ago. Jp
Jp7191, post: 450376, member: 1617 wrote: You might search the CLSA forum site. I believe there were posts on that subject a few years ago. Jp
Thanks JP!
"Slices" (really just vertical scratches, probably with plumb bob) in face of slate curb, common deed call in some North Jersey cities. With tree lined streets and fenced in rear yards, it can take 4 traverse points to survey a 40'x125' lot. Even if not in the deed, you need to look and hope for old curb with slices in certain municipalities.
BTW, why is this thread under GNSS & Geodesy?
Paul in PA
BTW, why is this thread under GNSS & Geodesy?
Paul in PA
Only because I'm new to the site and did not pay attention to the category. Now I know to look out for that next time- Thank you, Paul!
NC Hansen, post: 450433, member: 13086 wrote: BTW, why is this thread under GNSS & Geodesy?
Paul in PA
Only because I'm new to the site and did not pay attention to the category. Now I know to look out for that next time- Thank you, Paul!
Easy to fix. Right next to your name is a "Report" button, it takes comments directly to the board monitor. So report yourself and ask that your thread be relocated. Where it is, is not important now, but in the future someone may go looking for it and not recall where it was listed.
BTW, welcome to the board.
Paul in PA
I have never understood the practice of not showing crosses (grooves)on plats found. The distance from the corner also should be shown.
NC Hansen, post: 450341, member: 13086 wrote: Does anyone in Los Angeles County know any history of Grooves which were cut in the back of old sidewalks in the City of Pasadena? I remember finding several of these (as opposed to the common cut cross) in the early 2000's with Pasadena City Engineer field book references. The Cut Groove which I have found most recently is in the back of an old portion of sidewalk, no reference found, within 0.04' of a tract line which 2 other surveyors have established by proration instead of by record angle/ distance per the original early 1900's senior tract. The Groove is either 0.04' east of senior record, or 0.04' west of a proportioned line and divides 2 very small commercial lots. Like anything else without a tag, the Groove could be something or it be nothing. Aside from the task at hand, a general history of the Grooves would be great to hear about.
Did you check with LA County Surveyor's Office? I would imagine that several there may know about these, especially Curt O'Bryan. Also, check with the LA Chapter of CLSA. They have a meeting tonight in Santa Clarita where you can ask.
Jim Frame, post: 450363, member: 10 wrote: In postwar Sacramento County, CA, when the area was growing explosively, it was common to cut a gash (the local term for a chiseled groove) at the back of curb or sidewalk in new subdivisions. They weren't mentioned on the plats, but they're direct evidence of the original lot locations.
The practice was still in use by at least some companies into the 1980s, and maybe later.
We were doing this in new subdivisions in the Rocklin area (NE outer burb of Sacramento) in the late 1990s per City requirements at that time. I think that the Board must have spoken to some of these local agencies sometime around 2000 about the requirements of durability and monument marking found in the PLS Act, because they switched to Berntsen copper mini-caps & stems (I forgot what Berntsen calls them - about 1" dia cap with a 2" stem) just inside back of walk.
With the gashes, the intersection of the gash and back of walk was typically within half a tenth of the actual front corner as the back of walk was supposed to have been built at the RW line. When we switched to the mini-mons, they were placed at a 1' extension into the RW from the front corners.
Although there are thousands of gashes, cut crosses, and similar markings which were set in the past and remain valid monuments for what they were intended to mark, BPELSG rightly frowns upon use of such marks for any new monumentation.
Ric Moore, post: 450473, member: 731 wrote: Did you check with LA County Surveyor's Office? I would imagine that several there may know about these, especially Curt O'Bryan. Also, check with the LA Chapter of CLSA. They have a meeting tonight in Santa Clarita where you can ask.
Good idea, Ric. I'm heading up to Santa Clarita shortly for tonight's meeting. See you there!
It took me a while, Paul, but I requested the category change.
We were cutting sidewalk crosses into curbs from Oaklandto Oakley in 2004, so the practice in California is not that old. We had a 3" cordless circular saw for the task.