Myself and many, if not most, received a large amount of advancement in the survey profession by experience as a chainperson. Today, that chainperson position is not as prevalent in the business model. The chainperson position was a great entry into the profession. It provided exposure to the field work which set the hook for many of us. That entry position is now a door that is mostly closed. For instance, I recently hired some help. I had no use to hire an uneducated person at the entry level. I needed someone who had an education so he/she could immediately grasp the concepts and tasks needed for job performance. I see that the profession now needs to draw from the educated pool, whereas in past years, it often drew from those less educated and those who put working outdoors ahead of classroom learning.
BTW, my recent hire has a B.A, in Business who has a passion for hunting. Its turning out to be a great combo. Good in math, loves the outdoors, and moldable.
Depends on the person. I have a broad college education, especially in business, accounting, and science, plus I'm a conservative risk taker, so we have done very well as a survey business while others have closed shop. I love surveying and would not want to do anything else.
And I get to play in the dirt, solve problems, and help clients. What's not to like.
For the record
The difference between future surveyors and future engineers can pretty well be summed up by noting the differing traits between about 95 percent of each future professional during the period of ages between 18 and roughly 25.
The future engineer is aimed at academics, academics and more academics. The thrill of the chase involves discovering the origin of the mythical square root of negative one and why it is so important in mastering highly complex problems. The so-called basic level classes such as Chemistry 1, Chemistry 2, Electronic Circuit Theory, Engineering Physics 1, Engineering Physics 2, Thermodynamics, Dynamics, Statics and at least four semesters of Calculus, Differential Equations and Series that are to be mastered in the first two years of study by all engineering students regardless of specialty (Nuclear, Mechanical, Civil, Biological, Agricultural, Industrial, Electrical, Computer, Electronic, etc.)remove about 60 percent of the starters from the pool. You have to love digging deeper and deeper into the guts of the complexity of understanding what is really happening in the real world as opposed to applying cookbook answers to multiple choice questions. You have to love being mentally challenged beyond where you ever believed you could go over and over and over again. You have to love sitting in discussion groups attempting to identify all 87 factors that go into influencing a specific situation and then determining the relative importance of each of those 87 factors on the result. You have to enjoy being in a social world filled with the Sheldon, Leonard, Howard and Raj-types. You must be preparing yourself to be a team member, corporate underling, rat maze office resident, frequent traveler, public speaker, downtrodden by the ignorant masses, no one understands you or your work, underpaid worker based on the demands of the path to get there.
Meanwhile, back at the future surveyor experience you have everything from convenience store clerk to Geodesy major. Virtually every path is different. A few go the academic route. Most grow into surveying from work experiences that eventually lead them to surveying management.
Surveying is largely looked upon as a necessary evil. Engineering is viewed more as a critical step on the road to a successful product/innovation/system enhancement/MORE PROFIT result.
In case you didn't know, I drive in both lanes at once because I DO OWN the whole damned road.
> Greetings Fellow Surveyors. I just signed up after creeping around for a while. I'd appreciate some input, if you'll bear with me.
I usually think a post like this is trolling, but for some strange reason I too will respond.
>
> I'm in my 30s, licensed for 10 years, having started in the field at 19 and paying attention while on the 4-year ABET conveyor belt.
as you mature you will probably again rethink your life, that is human nature
>
> As I've started to pull my nose back from the grindstone and pay attention to things other than my grinding, I'm noticing...EVERY ENDEAVOR OF SIMILAR DIFFICULTY PAYS WAY BETTER THAN SURVEYING.
If that is the bottom line for you Please find other work now!
>
> ... Could you ever in good conscience recommend this profession to a high school student?
Heck yes!
===
at 63 and having worked very little for several years I guess I am also "retired", kinda.
Over the years I earned a darn good living and was able to save and invest, enabling a worry free early retirement... totally debt free. I live in a style I dreamed of and have no fear of loosing it.
Sometimes the work was demeaning and brutal, paying just substance wages... but sometimes it was glorious and very fruitful... overall it was just darn Good.
Several times I strayed a bit, but always returned. Glad I did.
My path was different than most, but staying with land surveying enabled me to get where I am.
You appear to be focused on money. Beyond basic needs to feed, cloth and house yourself and your family there is much more to life than that!
I can honestly say that I enjoyed my 40+ years surveying and would do it again.
To each their own!
(PS: come out of the closet and identify yourself, it is easier)
Why don't you tell us a little about yourself, and especially how you got licensed so young. How old were you? What are your state requirements for licensure? What state are you in? Did you also get a degree? How did you get into surveying? Most younger guys that get into surveying that young and get a license relatively early knew what they wanted to be right away, and know how poorly it can pay. The nature of your questions makes me wonder if you came into the profession blind about the pay scale. Did you go into it thinking you could make a large salary? If so, how did you get that impression?
As to your questions, in general, No, if the teenager is looking at the best-paying profession, surveying is not it, including against engineers' salaries. There are other fields of study that it's even harder to get a job in or pays even less, but Surveying is not up there in the pay scale. Recommend engineering to them if they are looking to get an education, or maybe realty, if they want to get into something that doesn't require a degree and can pay even better if they excel.
Thanks for the positive response. That is encouraging to hear, and I do know of a couple multidisciplinary firms that operate in the appropriate way you describe.
For what it's worth, I referred to your firm as an engineering organization because...it's in the name! I know it's multidisciplinary, but as you point out, words are important and telling. 🙂
Many, many good comments above. As I read through these, I feel that this is a discussion we have had a thousand times, but nevertheless needs to continue because I firmly believe that if there is anything that this profession needs right now it's a unified plan for the future.
I'm also in my mid thirties, and have been licensed for just about 2 years now. I have had similar thoughts to what you are having and have questioned my career choices, but generally I'm happy and content with my position. Certainly it's not all about $. I graduated with a civil engineering degree, and could have pursued my PE, but enjoyed survey much more. I could very well be making more $ as a PE, but would I be as content?
As far as the future goes, many random thoughts jump into my head:
1) As the age of surveyors increases, will we become more valuable, or will powers we hold be passed onto others?
2) I think the education requirement is becoming more and more a necessity as the profession grows more complex. With the high cost of education, and the rather low starting wage of a surveyor, combined with the needed experience of fieldwork, will young people choose this path? Unfortunately, I think our numbers will continue to dwindle, at least for a time, which leads us back to question #1.
3) I think that people looking in from the outside would perceive a career involving fieldwork to be less "prestigious" than other careers. Parents may not encourage that kind of path. The person who is willing to fulfill the education requirements of our profession, and commit to the physical work when needed, is the rare person indeed.
4) Our worst enemy, is ourselves for various reasons I don't need to repeat. If we are to move forward and improve our profession, we need a strong voice to represent us. I don't think that voice is loud enough currently, but I have seen recent changes that hopefully will bring progress in the future.
Like you, I have more questions than I have answers. Everybody has an answer, but who has the right answers?
Could I recommend surveying to a high school student? Sure, but it would have to be the right student. The student who is intelligent, with a strong work ethic, and whom I believe would be an asset to the profession. The rest need not apply.
-V
I most certainly would recommend surveying as a career, too the right individual. It's not all about the money. The money follows when your passion leads to a broad skillset that makes you a valubable asset to a client or organization. This is true of any profession.
I can only speak for myself but I don't know of any other profession that would allow me to combine so many of my interests and experiences into a profession I'm more than adequately compensated for. I've done a lot of other things in my life but none have I had nearly the fun, challenge and adventure and occasionally, yes, misery. Well, maybe misery. Commerical fisherman was considerably more miserable at times.
Not to be critical, but if this is all you've done since you were 19, what you might be lacking is perspective. As they say, the grass is always greener ...
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Surveying/GIS program recruitment video
FWIW,
In an attempt to encourage enrollment into the GIS/Surveying program (aka geomatics), Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi produced the following video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n5W8RPLeWFY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dn5W8RPLeWFY
Enjoy,
DMM
I guess if it was the dollar I was chasing I would probably die of boredom.
@ Mr. Fleming EDIT: I had a spare moment and took an actual look at your company web site (instead of just glancing at the name of the web address). What an awesome example of how to present a true multi-disciplinary firm. I was especially impressed that the disciplines are listed and presented in order of project occurrence (Survey->Design->Construction Administration), instead of some sort of weird social status hierarchy. Damn, I am excited about the success of your organization in doing this. Kudos, and I bow to you as a shining example of the solution! (This is in no way sarcastic: I am that excited to see such a great model.)
VH,
You posted some very good thoughts which I agree with. However, a few thoughts concerning:
> 4) Our worst enemy, is ourselves for various reasons I don't need to repeat. If we are to move forward and improve our profession, we need a strong voice to represent us. I don't think that voice is loud enough currently, but I have seen recent changes that hopefully will bring progress in the future.
>
As for our national representation, NSPS is pretty much it. But on the state level where most changes need to be made, just what is our "representation"? Most, if not all states have state surveyor societies, but are they enough? How much power and intensity of voice do they really have? In most states the most powerful entity that does affect our profession is of course the licensing boards. Without those powerful entities consisting of (either in the majority or exclusively) members of OUR profession, how can we have an effective loud voice?
I think it is past time we quit wishing that others (engineers) would represent US, and we start representing and governing OURSELVES.
I appreciate your post and your questions and I am surprised that you are getting such a negative reaction to your comments. I don’t feel your questions are whining in any way. If surveyors would have dealt with these same questions 30 years ago and realized that we have some big issues that we should try and fix, the profession would be in a much better place. It may be that you are getting the aggressive reaction because what you have said is being taken as a personal assault to someone who has devoted a lifetime to a belief instead of a career. Most of the pro surveying people seem to be all saying that money should not be considered as a factor in choosing a profession. Well we have certainly enabled and enforced that mentality within the profession and maybe that’s why we are underpaid for our level of requirements and liability. I applaud the people that survey out of love instead of the need for money but I don’t believe that is true for everyone in every profession. I have a sneaking suspicion that if you asked all the people working for a living in the US that they probably would say that the money is more of a factor in deciding what they do all day as opposed to doing what they love to do.
That might be why we have vacations, why would you need to take time away from what you love?
Although I have limited exposure to different markets, I do try and get a sense of the profession through associations, publications, discussions with other surveyors, this blog, etc. I believe that in some areas surveyors are treated with the equitable respect and compensation as other professions but I also have seen markets that have a low opinion of surveyors and consequently the surveyors think very little of themselves and act according to that mentality. This can vary from one company to another but in reality if the market will not support professional survey work than companies simply cannot charge a bunch more than the competition unless they have an exclusive relationship with a government organization. So bottom line is that the profession isn’t equitable to others in compensation for what is invested. That’s why we are suffering a shortage of surveyors and our profession is being taken over by engineers, foresters, GIS people, fence builders, and just about anybody else with a handheld GPS.
Why else would we seem to need to call ourselves geomatic engineers instead of surveyors unless our profession was suffering in some way?
I am one of the lucky surveyors that have a successful business and I truly do love surveying. But I am confident enough in my abilities to know that if I would have put in as much effort and the 34 years in a different profession I would be making more money with less effort and liability. So, would I recommend it to a someone in high school, unfortunately there are two perspectives to this also, it would be good to get the most intelligent, ethical, and hardest workers into the profession for the sake of the profession but with today’s current return for all that work I would feel guilty because eventually that person will see that they have to do more for their compensation and respect than most professions.
How do we fix that? Demand that work be done correct and complete the way it used to be, organize associations to confront GIS, Foresters, Cities, States and demand they not survey no matter how good they think there GPS units are. United we could really make some changes but surveyors seem to be the most independent bunch of people out there. Oh I forgot, stubborn too.
Brian, you're spot on. The best representation for our future can only come from ourselves. I'm actually headed to a society meeting in about an hour (MALSCE) and this could be a great topic of discussion. There are people I know who strive to achieve a better image and representation of the surveying community (some are members of this board), and kudos to them, but I feel more is needed.
The BOR certainly should have that responsibility, but I personally do not see much coming from that area currently, at least in my state. Just my opinion.
I don't know the answer here. Again, I have plenty of questions to start a discussion with, and maybe somebody smarter than me can come up with a plan of how to move forward.
-V
:good: :good: :good: :good:
Well said.
-V
> But on the state level where most changes need to be made, just what is our "representation"? Most, if not all states have state surveyor societies, but are they enough? How much power and intensity of voice do they really have?
FWIW In Maryland a representative of the state society attends all licensing board meeting. With the exception of when the board goes into executive session to discuss disciplinary matters, these meeting are open to the public.
The constant presence has resulted in the board using the society as manpower on regulatory issues. When a change is proposed the board will ask the society to put together a committee to study the issue, poll the licensees, and report back with their recommendations
Borrowing a Useful Mindset
Mr. Bait, I admire and share your views, and it is exciting to hear these thoughts come from someone more senior in the profession than myself. In this spirit, I share the following link
While this fellow writes from a personal finance perspective, I think we can all see how his attitude could be applied in our current situation.
Borrowing a Useful Mindset
Great articles, I agree that for the most part a person’s perception is the reality they create for their life.
In trying to backpedal from your post one to post five you have pretty much used up your credibility and understandability in this thread. It's too confused at this point to proceed.
Probably best to just try to re-think and re-word your position and try to articulate it in a new thread.
OP needs to quit surveying, get filthy rich with the investing, and find out that money can't buy the love you used to have. It will take a few years.