From DAVID DRAHN's description, I think the rock walls and terracing belong to the person who is hiring the landscape architect and DAVID DRAHN. Right? It seems like the rock walls et al. stop 4 feet short of the neighbors lot, and it has been presumed by the client and the neighbor that a 4 foot strip belongs to the neighbor but, if you believe the RR spike, actually belongs to the client.
So whether there's a problem depends on what's going on on that strip. Has the neighbor built a horse shoe court? Does the neighbor yell at the client and chase her away when she walks on that strip? Is it volcanic rock that nobody walks on and nobody does anything with it?
But maybe it's better not to answer, unless it can be established that the type of activity DAVID DRAHN has been involved in is lawful in HI.
@aliquot I think I got some good answers. What bothered me is that someone at some point spent time and some serious effort to install the pipe in a manner very consistent with a property monument. I've never seen a pipe in concrete used any other way (not that they aren't). Maybe being paranoid I thought it may have been this testy neighbors work, but you bring up a good point - maybe it's written into her deed, maybe marking a utility easement or something. I'm probably not gonna look at it and I haven't advised her in any way beyond 'it depends on how much its worth to you'. But I did bring it to her attention and might have stepped in it by even doing that... her boundary wasn't a critical part of the measurement there. But setting pipe in that area is mostly solid basalt and I can't imagine a surveyor going through that effort by mistake, which is now a mistake (maybe) that's casually recognized as a property corner by one less party.
@dave-drahn
Could the pipe have been used as a holder for a flag of a certain size at one time. People do odd things to their property sometimes for what is a very specific reason.
@ashton I've stayed as aware and respectful as possible of the legality of what I do and have told several people over the years that I won't do what they're needing because of that. But you're certainly welcome to report me to someone if that's what you're interested in. FWIW I'm also a licensed Class A general engineering contractor here and know that I'm certainly allowed to measure land features for my projects in almost whatever way gets the information I need, or in this case that an architect needs.
The real question is how much is 4' of dirt worth to YOU.?ÿ
Did you create this problem??ÿ
Did you flag the pipe for eveyone to see thinking it was the actual property corner without proper examination and verification of the record description and location??ÿ There by creating ambiguity to fuel the fire of neighborly disputes.?ÿ
How do I make it right?
These are the questions I would ask if I were in your shoes.
Not how much of 4' of dirt down the hill beyond the rock wall is worth to YOU.
If I were you I would hire and pay for a licensed professional to retrace her property and provide a current PLAT of the findings.?ÿ That should provide adequate evidence to rebut any claim of acquiescence or adverse possession.?ÿ And calm the nerves of the 84 owner.
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My advice?
Advise her to consult with a Licensed Land Surveyor for advice/information/opinion about her boundary location.
Talk of lawyers, Adverse Possession and Establishment Doctrines is way premature.
The OP (a guy with a fancy measuring tape) needs to refer this hot potato out pronto.
@dave-drahn Thanks for the info David. I don't know about Hawaii but a certified letter noting the retaining wall is not a boundary is what gets recommended here to prevent the ripening of rights.
Nothing.
No.
Nope.
"I" don't.
I think there's an answer there to my original question, "what would you tell her?", so thanks for that.?ÿ Best so far IMO
@dave-karoly That is partly why I didn't talk with her about any of the legal aspects. And I thought coming to this group with it would help guide. I think it has. Mahalo.
@ David Drahn,
I'm not going to advise you on any of this stuff. Because:
You are in Hawaii. And all the rest of the reasons.
But, here's a few comments.
I'd druther see a competent field hand map and sketch the "encroachment", than a sloppy surveyor any day. Even if it's just the gardener, or the local fishmonger.
You said that the surveyor you retraced was "very competent". Did he reference the pipe on his plat?
Subject change.
Resection. It's a potentially dangerous piece of software. Use it where you have your own control network. To tie into your own work. Use it for "fast and dirty" getting close. But, think "big picture". Think in terms of:
Your control network.
Their published positions, relative to each other.
Keep these separate. Maintain fluidity, to tweek your network, for a best fit. When you get enough ties, then you can discover "outliers". These are outliers are the doom of resection. Outliers can come from many sources.
Sloppy tie by prev survey.
Bumped by mower. Or utility co. Etc ad nausium.
Just keep them separated, and you will be able to maintain a work flow that is generally better.
Happy Surveying!
N
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@nate-the-surveyor Thanks, Nate. First answer is no, the plat from the reliable surveyor references a RR Spike in concrete. I thought it could possibly be an uncaught typo by the CAD guy, which is partly why I didn't use that corner to start with, but wanted to check in on it before I left just for my own interest. There was no question by the homeowner or architect about setbacks or boundaries for this work; it was just existing features and grade in the area of some proposed construction.
Appreciate your guidance on resection as well. Makes sense and I see where the link can break.
@dave-drahn oh yeah, I bet you have fewer options there. Good luck and hope you can take it soon
I am surprised these guys have been so gentle, they must me mellowing with age.
I am not licensed, but I may be one day, and I am reasonably confident that one good way of ensuring that does not happen is to get in trouble for practicing without a license. Which, without being a legal eagle or anything it sure looks like you are doing to me.
As to what to tell her, I would tell her to call the LS on the document you used as a basis for your survey.
As to the specifics or your issue, like Nate said, you do not "resection" to found corner monuments. If you are going to play like that you shoot at least three, on some assumed bearing and coordinate base, then you examine their relationship with each other and if you like it you translate your control to one of the found points and rotate over to the pair that you like.?ÿ
And it sounds like you are chasing your tail over this pipe, you have three found monuments that fit your basis, one that is not shown and does not fit. From here it looks like you are tripping yourself up a little, perhaps because you are nervous because you must know that what you are doing is suspect and may be approaching fraud.
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@party-chef well, if you'd read all these replies, including mine here, you'd see why I completely disagree with you. And yeah, I understand the resection comment you're making but I've actually had that conversation on this forum before and also moderately disagree with you on that as well. Happy to go over all that again though, but I do understand how resection is calced, what residuals say, what it's limitations are and where it can fall apart.
Regarding your main question of legality or even ethics, I'll reiterate that I've even recently turned down requests for locating setbacks and that kind of thing and have referred them to local surveyors I know. I don't need the work and more importantly if I want to be licensed here, I don't need to be "that guy" in the community. But to your point, I am a licensed general engineering contractor, have been in CA and now HI for 20 years, and was getting measurements of existing site features and topography in a small localized area next to her main structure for design and permitting of a new addition. Would it have been more acceptable to you if I'd used a couple guys, a tape or two, a laser lever and a sketchpad? There was no question of setbacks or orientation to property boundaries or request to identify such. The fact that I shot or used existing monuments to located rather than just the building structure or other site feature has no relevance to my work there.
If you'd read my original question it hopefully got the idea across that I'd noticed what looks like a misplaced monument, she has had problems with that neighbor, I like her, I mentioned it to her with the disclaimer that 'even if I were licensed, it's not wise to advise on legal matters, just report factual observation' but here's what I saw.
Then I asked of this seemingly deeply knowledgeable and diverse group of true professionals, "what would you say to her?"
And I've gotten good direction. So if you want to answer that, I'd be interested.
@dave-drahn
Addressing what you didn't ask, but many people want to discuss:
Since the title "licensed Class A general engineering contractor" was odd to me, as I'm almost positive that title doesn't exist in my home state, I looked up what it was in Hawaii. That is an interesting series of skilled trades licensing. While grading and excavating were covered, I did not see anywhere that addressed topographic mapping at all. Such mapping was included in the definition of land surveying for Hawaii. From this board, I have learned that some states are more adamant about (and enforce) topographic mapping being professional practice than others. Since you are discussing taking the FS exam and seem to be looking to future licensure, it might be wise to confirm with the licensing board that such mapping is not the practice of land surveying. This should happen prior to completing a work history form during the application process. I am aware of several people who were quit confident what they were doing did not fall under the practice of surveying, but found out the hard way that it actually was when viewed by a licensing board.
Addressing the question you asked:
It is not uncommon to find extra metal in the ground which gives off the appearance of a corner marker. Prior to disclosing any potential issues that could cause conflict between neighbors (even if already feuding), I make sure to discuss with each party what they know/think about the boundaries. Sometimes, it turns out that one or both sides already know about the "problem" and it was never a problem to begin with. Without knowing what both sides think the iron pipe you found represents, telling the other side that someone can claim their land is not wise. No telling how many times I've been told - I stuck it back where I thought it went (yes, even with concrete around it) or that was where I had a bird house on a metal rod but I cut it down, etc... So, based on your story above, recommend to her to get a current survey, but do not suggest that there is an issue because you really don't yet know that there is one.
@dave-drahn
I would tell her as little as possible, I would refer her to someone who does not need to ask strangers on the internet what to tell her.
When I communicate with people about boundary issues I always try to treat it as if any disclaimer I use will be entirely ignored and forgotten.
If there is no question as to property, then what are you doing talking to her about her property lines, orient your drawing to the house or the curbs or something and call it good, I would not even show the monuments.
This is all just my opinion, and I am just a poor, dumb, field hand.
Maybe presenting her with a surveyors document, looking and talking like a surveyor and conveying that there is a property line issue and that she should contact a high dollar attorney is the best play after all.
I did step over the line on the fraud line, was just trying to ham it up a bit ????, have a good evening.
I am surprised these guys have been so gentle, they must me mellowing with age.
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When I was reading the responses, they did seem unusually nice given no professional license and someone taking ANY measurements.
@jon-payne Great response and ideas. Thanks, Jon. I've been able to talk to the board here pretty easily so I'll ask about that specifically. That contractor designation was the same in CA as well so thought it was a common phrase. We only have 2 generals here with the other Class B, Building. Then a bunch of "C" specialty licenses, most of which are included with the A & B.
Mahalo.
@paul-in-pa True man, but out of the gate he appears to have resected from a calc, and regardless of the geometry we have no way of knowing how far that error was pushed, location may be fine, but, what he needs to tell the owner is to consult a professional.
