battlefield archaeology need to transform total station points to actual points, have UTM for instrument and backsight

Hey Kev,

• Send me airfare over to Pennsylvania?ÿ when the weather is warm and I'llh help you out in two days or less.
• ?ÿ

Hi Skeeter,

i think at this point it's a matter of juggling the data, now we will begin again after i graduate, depending upon my work schedule, but will shoot for Oct-Dec weekend schedule.?ÿ Can you help with the transposition of the points??ÿ Are you close, i mean right now i think airline tix are at fire sale prices, lol, well, not funny really.?ÿ but no geld for travel., the good thing is my research should allow about three townships to apply for ABPP Grants so that's cool

Best wishes,

kev

What you need is a program that will transform (translate, rotate & scale) your assumed coordinates into UTM coordinates. You will need at least two points from each survey that has coordinates in both the assumed and the UTM systems. Using the common points, the software will calculate the transformation parameters, then transform the other assumed coordinates into UTM. It sounds like each instrument set up is an independent assumed coordinate system, so you would have to calculate this transformation for each set up as a separate routine. One easy option would be to use "Transform for Windows" from

https://www.primacode.com/transform.htm

The software costs $350, but you can download and run it for free for 30 days. It has excellent documentation, and is a very user-friendly program to run. Input and output files are just comma delimited text files, so it is easy to move your data to and from other software programs (such as CAD or GIS).

@peter-lothian

You are Awesome, i will do this this weekend, yes, the instrument was old, and on all but one site i have the UTMs.  oh but the last field where we pulled tape is about 500 feet away, but i should be able to sort.

Thank you and i'll let you know how i make out, Thank you

kev

Breaking down your stream of conciousness, I believe that you are asking if you can take a set of coordinates in one system and translate, rotate, scale them to another. The answer is a certain yes. That is something we surveyors do everyday.?ÿ Most commonly by importing the points into CAD and performing those operations graphically.?ÿ I've never used the Primacode program myself, but I've heard about it, and that is what it does.

Translate and scale could easily be done in Excel. Rotation is do-able there as well, but the math is much more complex. The CAD or the Primacode approach is probably a good one for you.?ÿ

Personally my approach would be to reduce the angle/distance raw data to coordinates, holding the UTM positions you have tied, using a program called StarNet. But that's overkill for what you want. It amounts to seeing the "raw data" as the collected angles and distances, and the coordinates as something calculated from that raw data, as opposed to thinking of the coordinates as raw data.?ÿ?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

Note that the discussions above include scaling.?ÿ You need to understand that a meter in UTM is not exactly a meter on the ground, and geodetic north is not north on the UTM map.?ÿ UTM is one of the common map projections used to flatten the earth onto a plane.?ÿ This must involve distortion that depends on where within the map you are and at what elevation.

Your distances taken with tape may be short enough that the distortion of UTM does not materially affect your results at the intended accuracy, but you need to check on that by finding the Combined Scale Factor associated with a set of UTM coordinates in your project.

Listen to Bill. ?ÿHe understands archaeology surveying.

Hopefully, someone will step up and offer to have you send your data and see what they can do to help.

unfortunately I am not that someone. ?ÿSorry.

Good luck!

" But i did borrow a GPS that used GPS and GLONASS and have all but a few of my instrument locations and backsights in UTM for PA State Plane South."

?ÿ

When you say GPS, what do you mean? Was it survey grade or just a handheld sport unit?

Posted by: @bill93

Ignore Brad's compliment - while I have volunteered on archaeology projects I have no special knowledge on the subject.

I took the Wikipedia coordinates for the battlefield and assumed an elevation of 300 feet.?ÿ What I find is that UTM has a length distortion of 38 cm per kilometer or 2 ft per mile, and SPC has almost no length distortion relative to ground. There is a rotation of 1 3/4 degree between those systems at this point.?ÿ These facts might be consideration in converting coordinates. These values will change a little as you move away from that point.

Hope I did it correctly.

39 52 31 N, 75 34 31 W
Elevation 300 ft

UTM zibe 18 meters:
N 4414072.762
E 450805.089
Convergence -0 22 07.8
Scale Factor 0.999629794
Combined Factor 0.999620619 (38 cm per kilometer)

PA South SPC (zone 3702) meters
N 62465.432
E 786028.327
Convergence +1 24 39.4
Scale Factor 1.000009586
Combined Factor 1.000000408 (less than 1 mm per kilometer)

At elevation 400 ft
Combined Factor 0.999995624 (4 mm/km)

Hopefully you have a Master's degree in Geometronics to accomplish those tasks. It's known as trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Sometimes it's better to just start over from scratch. Surely whoever lent you the surveying equipment has software to process the Data? Is there an Engineering branch at your institution? Professors are a great resource and usually bend over backwards to help students succeed. Your project sounds much more interesting than measuring sidewalks around campus.

Unfortunately I'm located about as far away as you can get from PA or I'd come right over and help you out.

I am in PA and can help. Besides the questions I had emailed you, I can also get you started using available online PA data and ortho-photos. In fact ortho-Photo derived coordinates may be precise enough for your project needs.

Paul in PA

Way to go, Paul!

@brad-ott

Hi Mr. Ott,

Thank you for your thoughtful email, i feel a hell of a lot better today than for the last 6 months, so thrilled as punch

Sincerely,

kev

@andy-nold

HI Mr. Nold 

Here is a pairing of am and pm points, which i then averaged, and then located as a shapefile in ArcGIS PRO, i was using ArcMAP but thensince ABD i lost software, and then was able to pay a fee to get ArcGIS PRO for a year, like i mentioned in first email, it's been out of pocket and i just thought , "well, it's about 1/5 of my semester book bill" So i signed on.  I could not get AUTO CAD to do the same, because my first thought was to kind of present the points in 2D in CAD and then import as a clear background JPG, then stretch to get my control points lined up, it wouldn't be a perfect solution, but for the image presentation in 8.5 x 11" it would work, and then i got annoyed, since correct is correct, anything not correct is wrong, and i am grateful i reached out on this forum, because as noted above, i spent almost two years begging, and couldn't get help.  I thought it was the fact that we were still pulling out of the recession and that some day the surveyors and engineers i was bugging would upgrade their gear, but boy what a well noted sad tale of woe.,

 i don't know why that came in so small on the CTL_C; CTL_V

107_2,216675.99267,2574758.68880,334.332,MON

107_3,216675.97550,2574758.67244,334.156,MON

That's better, So i took reading during the day, then went back about supper time, but only had maybe an hour from last reading to repeat of first reading, an hour meaning after last reading i was like 7 hours from time of first reading, so went back

The Antenna was TOPCON GRS-1 596-00121

SURVEY CONFIG GPS + CONFIG

PROJECTION SPC83-PA-S

WHICH DEFAULTS I THINK TO GEOID MODEL g2003u08

Projection as noted PA State Plane South

DATUM NAD83_no_trans

i am not clear on my note from thetime but i took like three second readings of point 103 because the inversion didn't look right

my notes i wrote "why bad inversion, could it have switched to float, but if on float then it wouldn't record point"

it looks like i mislabeled a point name and caught late in the day, this was done in 2014, i trained on the instrument for maybe one dry run with the guy who lent it to me, and then the next day went out with three students helping.

The reason for the good instrument and not handheld is i always considered the handhelds to be shit, and in the Middle East i'd see guys walking a site recording with their Garmen from the hunting shop like they were NASA Engineers, and i was myself in this thinking,  i'm a regular guy, and i knew i wanted any spatial data to be bang on.  For instance i am listing my metadata, and for general GIS images i am using the same two data sources so anyone can replicate my work, and someone was like "who cares" and i was like, "you guys are assholes, " yeah, didn't go over well.

My favorite kev moment not to be speaking in the third party was at a conference in DC, and i revealed some of my findings and NPS came up and said great stuff, and i said yeah, such and such a county got over 40k in Federal money did a great Phase One, i didn't get a dime, i found two 18th century roads, a battlefield trench, potential mass grave, and pinpointed darn close where Proctor's guns were that got captured at bayonet point.  but to be fair, i was going to apply for 5k, but then you can't use money for surveying gear, and you had to spend a week in DC so NPS can show you how to do all the paperwork and i was that BS, that's what's wrong with this country, i'll spend half the money on a room or be sleeping on a bench gettin mugged in DC.  Yeah, my mom would always say of all the kids i was the charmer - lol

and i got witnesses for all, lol, don't think for a minute my advisor wasn't ready to put his foot up my backside, but keep in mind i drove 5 hours to present at the conference, counld't even afford a room at the shindig, and SHA wanted me to pay like 250 conference fee, i'm out 2 tanks of gas and like 40 bucks in tolls, so i was like, "look, i'm a tad late i'll catch you later"  yeah, that was 2014.  and it's not that i'm ignorant, i was working my but off fulltime and i think i had 1 or 2 night classes i was teaching, seminars, so like 2:40mins, and was up all night driving- and within 20 minutes of finishing the paper i was heading out and thank goodness for the parking guy he let me slide on paying because he saw me dragging my stuff in looking like i needed a Sherpa guide, lol

kev

@bill93

Dear Sir,

Thank you, i would say the maximum distance on pulling tape was 600 feet.  Picture me with a half dozen students, 4 with good metal detectors, 2 with a pos detector, again, was out of pocket, learning curve, etc., there's no class on metal detecting, and i had a few adults with detectors, who were as good as the best i have worked with. but let me tell you, when i point to a tree in a horse pasture tell a dozen people don't go past the tree since i'm pulling tape, i may as well have been talking to the horses, the tree was about 260 feet, and the furthest point i'm remembering was just about 600.  funny not even a little, i could do a one man comedy act on the draining of oxygen and mental faculty once people get metal detector in their hands, it is absolutely shocking, 

Bill, can you see all my responses to other folks posting?  i am a total greenhorn and never did this sort of format before.

I have several really brilliant folks like yourself who have commented.

and i'd like to post that i am good for now and then collaborate with the few posters who like yourself know the hole i've dug for myself.

Since this is a project where i will give citation credit for the assistance, i mean i've been a decade on my own with one TopCON dealer who was kind to sell me old stuff cheap and calibrated, lent me the Antenna, but i wish now i had reached out on a forum like this but these sites are historically significant, and this is the sort of project that after graduation i am going to see NAT-GEO about making a show,  we have video, stills all done by professional volunteers or students within their major volunteers.  So this could roll into five ABPP grants and a unified map, and one of my dissertation goals (minor) was one map so even isolated finds can get plotted and perhaps a cluster that would never be identified can appear on a single managed geo-spatial database. 

If you can see the other postings i listed the Antenna reading for a STA_01 and BS_01 (Instrument and backsight)

i listed the instrument and a Station/instrument and BS readings.

i am just up, i have a conference to attend today that i thought would be cancelled, so leaving time and hoping something open all night has particle mask and nitrile gloves, if not i'll wear my shemagh but like in Oman, not wrapped around my head like i'm doing dishes at a restaurant. i have safety gear at Temple but i can't get to my lab space to get masks and gloves.   i feel like i'm going into a HAZ-MAT site,

i can send you an image which will have two good point marked, three blocks over, meaning in my partitioning of the site.  then draw a general polygon very close the provide a total perimeter of where i pulled tape.  

i don't know the proper etiquette but can we talk off-forum?  i have three excellent posts and i'd like to coordinate getting us on one email group, and then i can begin sharing my spatial data, lay all the cards on the table and get your recommendations, i have a feeling you'll all have the same line of sight to the best solution, but i have a sense of loyalty, so if we have three professionals helping me, then i'll hope to keep a group, even if it means maybe a quick branstorming session, and then yourself or someone stating, what for you all is the obvious,  Since i've never been good at dating, so won't try to parallel two people to the same solution, you're all busy and i am so sincerely grateful , and i'll say that a lot since it's true.  and so i will list my email here and my mobile, i will be in transit until est. 7am, then get some chow, and in conference by 8, so my mobile will be on until 07:50 Philadelphia local time.  i will be able to look at my email but not this forum, i must need to do an app or something and i try to keep my phone as a phone. 

my name kevin michael donaghy

my mobile 732-331-6387 don't mind the NY number, it's from work and my boss at that time was NYC based, my work home office is Wilmington based, but since my clients are S. Jersey and PA east of Harrisburg, i wanted 215 or 610, now even though i grew up in Philly if i see a client they ask what part of NY/NJ i'm from, lol.

Thank you again Bill 

Best wishes, kev 

@peter-lothian

Thank you for your help, i will download the trial software Monday, and have help which may have alternate solution,  Mr. Lothian, i am sincerely thankful for your assistance, and i will keep this posting up to date with progress.

Best wishes, kev

@norman-oklahoma

Hi Mr. Norman,

your comments are well received, i thought about making a jpg and importing the raster into the vector-topologic of ARCGIS PRO, and if all else fails that will be the way to go since i can georeference the STA and BS which will snap and scale the artifact distribution, but that tool wants four points,  i think i did shoot the larget project from the STA to the STA of another site, but i had to move the STA about 2 feet because of a tree.  bottom line a proby mistake, i should have made sure i had a sightline between - but there were other reasons,  the research since i was working fulltime and teaching at night meant about 8 years of weekends , one winter we had snow on the ground from October to Christmas, etc., but i like to say i prefer to make new mistakes versus making the same mistake.  I have a few folks who i am confident can help me complete these tasks.  May i count you in that group? since i need to communicate outside of the posts, and also i need to secure some of the data, the University will embargo for one year, so i can publish, but this is big, so will be front page above the fold when i defend.  although that may be by video at the rate we're going,

i am going to a conference today, will have phone on from now until 07:50, but no computer access

home late tomorrow, my mobile 732-331-6487

my email [email protected]

and please, no worries if you're busy, i understand, but wanted to reach out to a small number of professionals and then take the dialog private.

Sincerely,

kev

@skeeter1996

Hi Skeeter,

you know i really can't be candid in a public forum, except to say i'm in the situation i'm in because i was unfunded and and was setting off in uncharted territory, meaning predictive theoretical model building to locate areas of battlefield activity - and i guess, the best way to put it is that i was going in a totally new direction and outside of department the GIS iwho are awesome and my own department - i was kind of a lone wolf.,

My defense is the big reveal and conference in Scotland to follow, and this week for the first time someone asked me if i had a publicist, i said what's a publicist?  NAT_GEO here i come, we'll see, but i'm last, the research was always bigger than me since it's our national heritage and i'm basically looking at historic locations saying they're wrong and proving where they are, and they are unprotected, where some of the most brutal hand to hand slaughter took place could be a mcdonalds next week.  so i'm knocking a few apple carts over  but need to graduate before i spill the beans.

@paul-in-pa

Hi Paul,

i have the old B/W photos from the 1930's and orthos from PENN STATE and DVRPC which were used because i wanted to use all publicly accessible data with meta-data so the next step be it myself or another scholar can replicate and double check my work, in case they question it.

Paul you may have seen i'm trying to get a few of the team into a private discussion so i can share data and we can collaborate, and since you'll all get official credit in the acknowledgements i need to get some docs signed since the material is going to be legally embargoed, yup that's the term, for at least one year maybe two.  so i can publish and also so the communities get a heads up, since i don't want to see a mass grave get looted by midnight metal detectorists.

my phone 732-331-6487

email [email protected]

i'm on the road in ten minutes and will have mobile on until 07:50, then off until supper time.  i will not have laptop, and will be attending a conference, back on sunday dinnertime.  we can catch up sunday night or next week - i am in doylestown vicinity.

Sincerely,

kev