Basis of Bearings:

LOYAL

Yep, it's not there anymore :-@

From the September 1994 NGS datasheet CD -

 QV0432  HORZ DATUM  -  NAD 83 (1992)
 QV0432  VERT DATUM  -  NGVD 29
 QV0432
 QV0432  POSITION    -  45 03 52.38542(N)    106 51 37.67746(W)     ADJUSTED
 QV0432  92 minus 83 -       +00.00692             +00.01131        ADJUSTED
 QV0432  83 minus 27 -       -00.09017             +02.23933        NADCON

So even 19 years ago all NGS was providing was the NADCON shift.

I have here this pile of NGS datasheet CDs (North Central [IA IL IN KS MI MN MO MT ND NE SD WI WY] 1994 and 1996 through 2001; South Central [AR AZ CO LA NM NV OK TX UT] 1996) that I have been considering pitching. Not sure if they really provide any value.

If someone wants these CDs, make a $20.00 contribution to SurveyorConnect and I will mail all eight CDs to you at no additional charge.

GB

Loyal...Update

It appears that some datasheets still list the NAD27 values and some don't.
I need to investigate further why some of them no longer list the values.

Mighty

It doesn't look to me like the NGS ever published a NAD27 Coordinate on this point
(at least in the digital Datasheet format). Here's the 1993 Datasheet:

1        National Geodetic Survey,   Retrieval Date = AUGUST 16, 1993
 QV0432 ***********************************************************************
 QV0432  DESIGNATION -  MILL
 QV0432  PID         -  QV0432
 QV0432  STATE/COUNTY-  MT/BIG HORN
 QV0432  USGS QUAD   -  DECKER
 QV0432
 QV0432  HORZ DATUM  -  NAD 83 (1992)
 QV0432  VERT DATUM  -  NGVD 29
 QV0432
 QV0432  POSITION    -  45 03 52.38542(N)    106 51 37.67746(W)     ADJUSTED
 QV0432  92 minus 83         +00.00692             +00.01131        ADJUSTED
 QV0432  83 minus 27 -       -00.09017             +02.23933        NADCON
 QV0432
 QV0432  HEIGHT      -      1204.8    (meters)    3953.     (feet)  VERT ANGLE
 QV0432  88 minus 29 -        +0.7                                  VERTCON
 QV0432 ***********************************************************************
 QV0432  LAPLACE CORR-        -5.49                                 DEFLEC93
 QV0432  GEOID HEIGHT-       -13.86                                 GEOID93
 QV0432
 QV0432  HORZ ORDER  -  THIRD
 QV0432
 QV0432.The horizontal position was established by classical geodetic methods
 QV0432.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in July 1992.
 QV0432
 QV0432.The orthometric height was determined by vertical angle observations.
 QV0432
 QV0432.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC93 derived deflections.
 QV0432
 QV0432.The geoid height was determined by GEOID93.
 QV0432
 QV0432;                    North         East       Scale          Converg.
 QV0432;SPC MT      -     94,040.338   807,837.815 0.99996187     +1 55 51.0  MT
 QV0432;UTM  13     -  4,991,804.990   353,531.584 0.99986379     -1 19 02.1  MT
 QV0432
 QV0432_STATION MARK IS A TRIANGULATION STATION DISK
 QV0432_WITH SETTING: SET IN A DRILL HOLE IN BEDROCK
 QV0432_STABILITY: MOST RELIABLE AND EXPECTED TO HOLD
 QV0432+STABILITY: POSITION/ELEVATION WELL
 QV0432
 QV0432  HISTORY     - Year Condition            Recov. By
 QV0432  HISTORY     - 1966 STATION MONUMENTED   US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY
 QV0432
 QV0432                          STATION DESCRIPTION
 QV0432
 QV0432'DESCRIBED BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1966
 QV0432'STATION IS ABOUT 18 MI. N. AND 5 MI. E. OF SHERIDAN, WYOMING, AND
 QV0432'ABOUT 4 MI. N. OF DECKER, MONTANA, IN BIG HORN COUNTY, MONTANA.
 QV0432'
 QV0432'STATION IS ON THE N. END OF A PROMINENT RED BUTTE ABOUT 3 MI. W.
 QV0432'OF THE S. END OF TONGUE RIVER RESERVOIR.
 QV0432'
 QV0432'TO REACH FROM T-RD. E. AT DECKER, MONTANA, PROCEED N. ON GRAVEL RD.
 QV0432'3.2 MI. TO TRACK RD. W. AT WINDMILL.  TURN LEFT (W.) AND PROCEED
 QV0432'0.8 MI. TO DIM TRACK RD. S.  TURN LEFT (S.) AND PICK WAY CROSS
 QV0432'COUNTRY S. AND E. 0.9 MI. TO FENCE CORNER AND WIRE GATE.  PASS THRU
 QV0432'GATE AND PICK WAY CROSS COUNTRY S. AND W. 0.6 MI. TO BOTTOM OF N.
 QV0432'END OF PROMINENT RED BUTTE.  LEAVE TRUCK AND PACK UP N. END OF BUTTE
 QV0432'TO STATION.  ABOUT A 5-MINUTE PACK.
 QV0432'
 QV0432'STATION MARK--STANDARD TABLET CEMENTED IN BURIED ROCK,
 QV0432'STAMPED---MILL ET 1966--.
 QV0432'

Here's the 1997 Datasheet:

1        National Geodetic Survey,   Retrieval Date = OCTOBER 20, 1997
 QV0432 ***********************************************************************
 QV0432  DESIGNATION -  MILL
 QV0432  PID         -  QV0432
 QV0432  STATE/COUNTY-  MT/BIG HORN
 QV0432  USGS QUAD   -  DECKER (1979)
 QV0432
 QV0432                         *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL
 QV0432  ___________________________________________________________________
 QV0432* NAD 83(1993)-  45 03 52.39201(N)    106 51 37.68793(W)     ADJUSTED  
 QV0432* NAVD 88     -      1205.5    (meters)    3955.     (feet)  VERTCON   
 QV0432  ___________________________________________________________________
 QV0432  LAPLACE CORR-          -6.01  (seconds)                    DEFLEC96
 QV0432  GEOID HEIGHT-         -14.30  (meters)                     GEOID96
 QV0432
 QV0432  HORZ ORDER  -  THIRD
 QV0432
 QV0432.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods
 QV0432.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in January 1997.
 QV0432
 QV0432.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to
 QV0432.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.)
 QV0432
 QV0432.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC96 derived deflections.
 QV0432
 QV0432.The geoid height was determined by GEOID96.
 QV0432
 QV0432;                    North         East     Units   Scale      Converg.
 QV0432;SPC MT       -    94,040.534   807,837.579   MT  0.99996187 +1 55 51.0
 QV0432;UTM  13      - 4,991,805.199   353,531.360   MT  0.99986379 -1 19 02.2
 QV0432
 QV0432                          SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL
 QV0432
 QV0432  NAD 83(1986)-  45 03 52.37850(N)    106 51 37.66615(W)     ADJUSTED  
 QV0432  NAD 83(1992)-  45 03 52.38542(N)    106 51 37.67746(W)     ADJUSTED  
 QV0432  NGVD 29     -      1204.8    (meters)    3953.     (feet)  VERT ANG  
 QV0432
 QV0432.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control.
 QV0432.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums.
 QV0432.See file format.dat to determine how the superseded data were derived.
 QV0432
 QV0432_MARKER: DS = TRIANGULATION STATION DISK
 QV0432_SETTING: 66 = SET IN ROCK OUTCROP
 QV0432_STABILITY: A = MOST RELIABLE AND EXPECTED TO HOLD
 QV0432+STABILITY: POSITION/ELEVATION WELL
 QV0432
 QV0432  HISTORY     - Date     Condition        Recov. By
 QV0432  HISTORY     - 1966     MONUMENTED       USGS
 QV0432
 QV0432                          STATION DESCRIPTION
 QV0432
 QV0432'DESCRIBED BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1966
 QV0432'STATION IS ABOUT 18 MI. N. AND 5 MI. E. OF SHERIDAN, WYOMING, AND
 QV0432'ABOUT 4 MI. N. OF DECKER, MONTANA, IN BIG HORN COUNTY, MONTANA.
 QV0432'
 QV0432'STATION IS ON THE N. END OF A PROMINENT RED BUTTE ABOUT 3 MI. W.
 QV0432'OF THE S. END OF TONGUE RIVER RESERVOIR.
 QV0432'
 QV0432'TO REACH FROM T-RD. E. AT DECKER, MONTANA, PROCEED N. ON GRAVEL RD.
 QV0432'3.2 MI. TO TRACK RD. W. AT WINDMILL.  TURN LEFT (W.) AND PROCEED
 QV0432'0.8 MI. TO DIM TRACK RD. S.  TURN LEFT (S.) AND PICK WAY CROSS
 QV0432'COUNTRY S. AND E. 0.9 MI. TO FENCE CORNER AND WIRE GATE.  PASS THRU
 QV0432'GATE AND PICK WAY CROSS COUNTRY S. AND W. 0.6 MI. TO BOTTOM OF N.
 QV0432'END OF PROMINENT RED BUTTE.  LEAVE TRUCK AND PACK UP N. END OF BUTTE
 QV0432'TO STATION.  ABOUT A 5-MINUTE PACK.
 QV0432'
 QV0432'STATION MARK--STANDARD TABLET CEMENTED IN BURIED ROCK,
 QV0432'STAMPED---MILL ET 1966--.

These are directly from the OLD NGS CDs (1993 & 1997)

Now the old Paper Datasheets would be a different story.

Loyal

Mighty

Here's one that I use sometimes, downloaded today:

1        National Geodetic Survey,   Retrieval Date = NOVEMBER 20, 2013
 LP0451 ***********************************************************************
 LP0451  DESIGNATION -  MORGAN
 LP0451  PID         -  LP0451
 LP0451  STATE/COUNTY-  UT/TOOELE
 LP0451  COUNTRY     -  US
 LP0451  USGS QUAD   -  SOUTH MOUNTAIN (1993)
 LP0451
 LP0451                         *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL
 LP0451  ______________________________________________________________________
 LP0451* NAD 83(1994) POSITION- 40 23 44.71153(N) 112 25 57.09987(W)   ADJUSTED  
 LP0451* NAVD 88 ORTHO HEIGHT -  1617.2    (meters)    5306.    (feet) VERTCON   
 LP0451  ______________________________________________________________________
 LP0451  GEOID HEIGHT    -        -17.56  (meters)                     GEOID12A
 LP0451  LAPLACE CORR    -         -3.01  (seconds)                    DEFLEC12A
 LP0451  HORZ ORDER      -  THIRD
 LP0451
 LP0451.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods
 LP0451.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in November 1997.
 LP0451.
 LP0451.The NAVD 88 height was computed by applying the VERTCON shift value to
 LP0451.the NGVD 29 height (displayed under SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL.)
 LP0451
 LP0451.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC12A derived deflections.
 LP0451
 LP0451. The following values were computed from the NAD 83(1994) position.
 LP0451
 LP0451;                    North         East     Units Scale Factor Converg.
 LP0451;SPC UT C     - 2,229,384.365   420,835.137   MT  0.99994666   -0 35 50.5
 LP0451;SPC UT C     - 7,314,238.54  1,380,689.95   sFT  0.99994666   -0 35 50.5
 LP0451;UTM  12      - 4,472,668.503   378,426.655   MT  0.99978194   -0 55 42.5
 LP0451
 LP0451!             -  Elev Factor  x  Scale Factor =   Combined Factor
 LP0451!SPC UT C     -   0.99974912  x   0.99994666  =   0.99969579
 LP0451!UTM  12      -   0.99974912  x   0.99978194  =   0.99953111
 LP0451
 LP0451:                Primary Azimuth Mark                     Grid Az
 LP0451:SPC UT C     -  BILL                                     066 03 22.1
 LP0451:UTM  12      -  BILL                                     066 23 14.1
 LP0451
 LP0451|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
 LP0451| PID    Reference Object                     Distance      Geod. Az  |
 LP0451|                                                           dddmmss.s |
 LP0451| LP0450 BILL                                APPROX. 4.1 KM 0652731.6 |
 LP0451|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
 LP0451
 LP0451                          SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL
 LP0451
 LP0451  NAD 83(1993)-  40 23 44.70783(N)    112 25 57.09341(W) AD(       ) 3
 LP0451  NAD 83(1986)-  40 23 44.70263(N)    112 25 57.09111(W) AD(       ) 3
 LP0451  NAD 27      -  40 23 44.90763(N)    112 25 54.26415(W) AD(       ) 3
 LP0451  NGVD 29 (07/19/86) 1616.1    (m)         5302.     (f) VERT ANG       
 LP0451
 LP0451.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control.
 LP0451
 LP0451.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums.
 LP0451.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived.
 LP0451
 LP0451_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 12TUK7842672668(NAD 83)
 LP0451
 LP0451_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK
 LP0451_SETTING: 66 = SET IN ROCK OUTCROP
 LP0451_SP_SET: SET IN ROCK OUTCROP
 LP0451_STABILITY: A = MOST RELIABLE AND EXPECTED TO HOLD
 LP0451+STABILITY: POSITION/ELEVATION WELL
 LP0451
 LP0451  HISTORY     - Date     Condition        Report By
 LP0451  HISTORY     - 1955     MONUMENTED       USGS
 LP0451
 LP0451                          STATION DESCRIPTION
 LP0451
 LP0451'DESCRIBED BY US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY 1955
 LP0451'LOCATED ABOUT 13 MI. SW. OF TOOELE AND 3 MI. NE. OF ST. JOHN, ON
 LP0451'HIGHEST N. END OF LONE SMALL PROMINENT SAGEBRUSH AND ROCKY COVERED
 LP0451'KNOLL.
 LP0451'
 LP0451'TO REACH FROM JUNCTION OF STATE HIGHWAY 36 AND UNION PACIFIC RAILROAD
 LP0451'CROSSING AT THE ST. JOHN RAILROAD STATION WHICH IS ABOUT 5 MI. S. OF
 LP0451'TOOELE, DRIVE RIGHT (NW.) 0.6 MI. TO DIRT T-RD., TURN RIGHT (N.) 1.5
 LP0451'MI. TO Y-RD. BY A FARM HOUSE, TURN LEFT (W.) TOWARD SHEEP CORRAL, GO
 LP0451'0.1 MI. AROUND CORRAL AND HEAD LEFT (NW.) TOWARD TOP, 0.6 MI. AWAY.
 LP0451'(A 4-WHEEL DRIVE CAN BE DRIVEN TO STATION).
 LP0451'
 LP0451'STATION MARK--STANDARD TABLET STAMPED ---MORGAN 1955--- CEMENTED IN
 LP0451'ROCK OUTCROP.
 LP0451'
 LP0451'REFERENCE MARK NO. 1--CHISELED CROSS ON ROCK, 23.17 FT. FROM STATION
 LP0451'MARK, N 72 DEG 10 MIN W.
 LP0451'
 LP0451'REFERENCE MARK NO. 2--CHISELED CROSS ON ROCK, 33.10 FT. FROM STATION
 LP0451'MARK, N 38 DEG 37 MIN E.

Loyal

Loyal...Update

As you can see above, I have the 1993 @ 1997 NGS CDs, so I can check a few for you if you wish.

Loyal

Loyal...Update

No, it's ok Loyal, I think I may know what's happened, there are no NAD27 numbers in this area on other monuments, I just never needed them so I wasn't looking for it. I have most of the NAD27 control sheets in the area, this one is an exception, but I found the value anyway in some data.

It's good to know they aren't deleting them, kinda wonder just how long these sheets will get over time though.

Investigating further

Basis of Distances:

> All distances shown hereon are based on 2640.00 feet between the Southwest Corner, and West ¼ Corner of said Section 16, as shown on the 18?? GLO Plat.
>
> Loyal

Hey....you're on to something that can remedy those pesky lots that become 1/1000 under the minimum acreage for the counties......"All distances based on 250' between the Northwest and the Southwest oorners of lot 2, as shown on the 19XX "original" subdivision plat."