I got a request to propose on 3 ALTA Surveys of good-sized apartment complexes. They asked me to base the proposals on no Table A requirements (which I'll bet they change their mind on, but for today that's what they're saying).
My question is about on-site driveways. Requirement 5(j)says "driveways, alleys and other ways of access on or crossing the property must be shown" Does that mean interior driveways or ways of access that cross the property to other properties? Optional Item 9 would require parking areas and I wonder if that includes the on-site driveways as "optional". It would seem kind of weird to show just the driveways and not the parking areas, where would I "draw the line" between the two items?
I don't know but another Surveyor I did work for that you know spent 2 or 3 hours dragging me around a warehouse office type property being very specific about what I was to shoot and what I was not to shoot because it was just a basic ALTA and he only needed certain things. After he left my rodman said we could've shot everything by now which was true. So then we spend another couple of hours shooting the things he told us to shoot, pretty funny. And it was in the City of Sacramento so of course the P-Ks and cut crosses were all gone. Fun times. I think we found a pipe in the back and maybe something else but that was it. Pretty bad.
Well, I don't know about your neck of the woods, but around here, ALTA means as-built. Obviously you have to do item one. After that, I map all buildings, sidewalks, changes in all driveways (asphalt to concrete) interior lights poles etc.
The only thing different from my normal survey and an ALTA is that I show the items on schedule B and make notes about them and do the square footage thingy. Texas regs already cover most everything else.
I look at it this way, an apartment complex is going to be sold, the bank wants to know what they're buying. Show everything. If they pop the table A items, you've already done the field work, you just need to talk about them.
"Driveways, alleys and other ways of access on or crossing the property must be shown. "
Show the parking lots....don't show the number or alignment of the spaces (unless Item 9 gets kicked in later).
Include it in your fee proposal.
Leaving them off will only lead to questions such as "Where does this driveway go?"
> ... Does that mean interior driveways or ways of access that cross the property to other properties?...
That's how I read it.
There's no California requirement to even monument all the corners on a survey (Optional Item 1) or any of the optional requirements for that matter. Optional Item 10 is "access to a public way on land such as curb cuts and driveways..." so if they just need a basic ALTA so they can put a checkmark next to that on their list, it seems I would just show the boundary, easements, fences, buildings and no driveways, unless I'm trying to talk myself into that. I've never done one that way because the clients have always requested Items 9 & 10.
I don't want to propose to do something they don't need or want. Shooting all the driveways and parking lots would just about double the field time. To me, it seems like even showing the buildings is kind of overkill when you can see they're all well within the boundaries but that's not optional so it's got to be done.
The thing is, too, that all three have been sold within the last 5-12 years so there's probably already an ALTA Survey laying around somewhere on each one that could be updated by the previous surveyor for a fraction of my fee to start from scratch. Yeah I know, some people would charge full price for the update, but I'm just saying.
Mark
I meant which is it-interior driveways or ways of access to other properties or both?
> My question is about on-site driveways. Requirement 5(j)says "driveways, alleys and other ways of access ON OR CROSSING the property must be shown" Does that mean interior driveways or ways of access that cross the property to other properties? Optional Item 9 would require parking areas and I wonder if that includes the on-site driveways as "optional". It would seem kind of weird to show just the driveways and not the parking areas, where would I "draw the line" between the two items?
Sounds like both to me.
As far as "drawing a line" between the 2 items; I don't think there is a line, unless there is a specified easement.
I would assume that no underground utilities or contours will be shown and just map everything. Like Dave said, you could just shoot it faster than it takes to decide if you should or not.
I still say treat it like an as-built.
Mark
Interior ways which may serve as access to other properties. Also, points of access to your property.
If Table A item 10 where checked you would show the specific nature of access to a public way. Without item 10 you just show where it is without detailing the character of it.
Steven
It shows that there may be some possible prescriptive rights at play. It must be shown.
> I still say treat it like an as-built.
Only if Table A items 8 and 9 (at a minimum) are included.
Mark
You can't go wrong my way. It's nice for those pesky attorneys who change the rules mid stream.
Mark
> You can't go wrong my way.
You can price yourself out of the job.
Mark
Oh, I'm aware of that. SOP is to tie down everything on most jobs. You never know when you're going to need it. So the price already has it rolled into it. My guys wouldn't know what to do if I said get this and not that. Hell, I wouldn't have anything that I need. It's easier the other way and I'm still competitive with getting everything.
Mark
OK, I see where 5(c) requires location of pavement in streets and highways and observable evidence of access to abutting streets. How can "indication of access to a public way such as curb cuts and driveways" be optional and observable evidence of access to abutting streets be required?
Am I thinking about this too hard? Mark - You answered my question before I asked it.
It's pretty well spelled out in the body of the "2005 Minimum Standard Detail Requirements For ALTA/ACSM Land Title Surveys" just what the requirements are regarding what is to be performed by the surveyor. Table A items are Optional Responsibilties to be performed if requested. I don't understand why so many of you don't read these in order to know what you are required to provide.
"My question is about on-site driveways. Requirement 5(j)says "driveways, alleys and other ways of access on or crossing the property must be shown" Does that mean interior driveways or ways of access that cross the property to other properties?"
Why is this a question? Is there confusion as to what "ways of access" means? It is quite clear to me that it means areas of access to dedicated roadways, and I can't interpret it any other way...
Charles & Jim
Sorry if my mental density irritates you. I wouldn't ask this question without reading the Standards. I just ask the question here because there are people that do a lot more ALTA's than I do and might have a clearer understanding of the Standards than my feeble mind can grasp.
Jim - My concern is that "ways of access" might include the onsite driveways from the public street to the onsite carports. That's all I'm trying to find out.
Charles & Jim
When there is no Table A checklist provided, the best thing to do is insure you meet your State Minimum TechnicalStandards as outlined by your State Board of Registration. That seems to be what the 2005 ALTA/ACSM specs say.
