Barbed wire

> How long would it take for average barbed wire to rust through?

I really couldn't venture a guess about that, I'm sure "it depends". But I have seen barbed wire fencing intact that is documentably well over 60 years old. I'm of the opinion that with the weather we have here, AND the composition of the wire, it would take probably 60 to 100 years before it "rusted through".

EDIT: Some barbed wire around here is "recycled". It may be 40 years old before it was stretched on posts at its present location.

Also, it can be influenced by salt, or mineral content. There are places in Louisiana, and SE Arkansas, that a pine knot, or wood stob outlasts a rebar.

N

It would seem that an adverse possession claim could be at stake. I suppose it depends and I'm sure that somebody will show the contrary. Only winners are the legal team to sort it out.

I've held many a historic fence line though. Kind of goes back to your decision and a record vs measure evaluation. I've tried to just fix the problem and hopefully all parties are on page to fix it. Property line adjustments help put all that to rest, but they do have to agree to at least something. Then there is zoning issues, yadda yadda

I've seen 100 yr old fences though. One issue is if it is barbed, or just wire. I think the concept of barbed wire came to be after regular wire. I would think that in PA a wire fence would be pretty critical for something, and if it's really old you'll be in good shape to not upset that apple cart.

As long as it is suspended and not in constant contact with moisture, 100 years would not surprise me.

A couple of obvious things to investigate:

- "Bore" the tree and count growth rings. This may not give exact age because the tree has to start growing around the wire, but it will give a minimum age.

- Get one of the barb wire history books, identify the wire, and get an age range from that.

There's a neat book called "Barbs, Prongs, Points, Prickers, & Stickers...A Complete and Illustrated Catalogue of Antique Barbed Wire," by Robert T. Clifton, published by the University of Oklahoma Press. It can tell you when many types of barbed wire were patented and by whom. It won't tell you when they were nailed to the trees.

Important

In one tree, I found 9 strands of barbed wire. I surmise that the fence had been done three times with three wires each time. That indicates ongoing maintenance. It hasn't been maintained recently but I believe it was at one time. So much so that it became evident that ownership had been claimed. After the overall acceptance of the fence and the progressive aging and eventual death of those who maintained it, the fence began to fall into ruin.

So in optimum conditions, we are looking at a 100 year life-span. This wire is rusty but by no means "disintegrating."

As to adverse possession, the two parties involved are gone. I don't know how hostile the possession was. I'm considering this to be a simple agreement by open entry. The terrain is definitely a key issue to the location of the wire. Top of slope was the logical place to fence.

The red line shows the fencing. It's over 3000' of barbed wire. Red dot is claiming "the tail" and yellow dot strikes a line straight through according to deed and also claims "the tail." The tax office was convinced enough to sketch it according to the adverse claim.

I'd think that you'd want to seek out some local comparables of known age so you have some sort of meaningful base line as the effects of time and material would vary by region. I wouldn't discount parole evidence of any old timers in the area who might have some valuable local knowledge/insight. Something so obvious that Mr. big city out of towner apple cart upsetter probably over looked, not seeing the forest for the trees. 😉

I'm with Dave on the 'boring to establish minimum age'. That takes care of one element. Now you need to drill down through the law to decide what else is part of the Surveyors duty in the overall fact pattern...

Thanks

I found that on Google Books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-euie9GhFlYC&pg=PA160&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Boring

I've never bored a tree before. I am deep into the law aspect though.
After having been in repose for over 60 years, I'd think the wire would hold. But that's just my opinion. This ground was in the family starting in the 1920s. It's still the same family. I can't determine which generation began the fencing. It goes pretty wild but remember that laymen were constructing it. They did the best they could. We can determine what they "should have done." "What they did" is more important though. I think the time involved makes this a key point.

Important

Interesting Matt. I've been to quite a few seminars that stressed that the only people that can move property lines are the owners. Or a judge.

We just get to show them the situation as it exists on the ground per records, and hopefully present scenario's on how to fix it to maintain harmony in the neighborhood. I think the term is quasi-judicial authority.

I'm pretty sure your problem is perplexing, if nothing else.

Did the other surveyor properly construct the deed based on evidence or did he just throw some math at the issue? I hAve seen many situations where the deed properly constructed and the lines of possession did not agree. As adverse possession is determined in the courts, I have always shown both the deed and possession lines. I cannot determine adverse possession. I will show evidence of possible adverse possession. Is it not our job to determine the original intent of the deed(when possible) and the physical possession? My survey may well show A & B. I guess A + B = C. The original fence my have been placed to contain cows with both owners in agreement as to its intent.

Facts

Fact is, I didn't even survey anything yet. I'm looking at two survey maps trying to determine which will be supported by facts. I think both have facts supporting their respective claims. This whole case is perplexing. On one hand you have possession lines standing for plenty enough years. On the other, you have deeds that overlap regardless of where the fence was placed. The records and the evidence point to an overlap. They are different in their locations and amounts but either way, there is an issue to be resolved.

Although I was hired by the fence guy, I feel like a middle man or a third-party. I'm staying neutral as per our M.O..
I heard a surveyor say once, "I don't own any land around here, therefore, I have no reason to favor either party." His seminar was focused on our need to stay neutral. "You guys are fighting over a boat dock and you hired me. I don't own a boat nor a dock so I'm just looking at the facts. Whichever way it turns out, understand that I didn't create this problem and the solution will not benefit me."

I know I'm rambling but I'll continue. I recently had a right-of-way issue. The neighbor was extremely distraught. She was downright angry and trying to be mean. She said, "I know who you are and I know you're buddies with them (my client)." She figured that because I know my client on a personal level, I'm going to cheat for them or try to do something beneficial for my client. I was not allowed to poke around her corners nor get on her ground, etc. She calmed down when she realized she knew my family. I was able to focus her attention on the facts. I was then allowed to search for her corners. Harmony in the neighborhood is my ultimate goal. I don't own any ground in here, so I'm not playing advocate for anyone.

I'm always amazed at how well kindness and a polite demeanor work in hostile situations.

Boring

The bore would potentially support the age of the fence. There are numerous other factors to consider, most of which are controlled by State and case law in conjunction with the timing of certain events.
As a Surveyor I would lay out the potential doctrines and list the evidence I am qualified to gather. If I find the facts support a single boundary location great. Set corners file map cash check. If they support a legal doctrine that puts title in question it's time to turn the evidence over to the client so decisions can be made. In the right circumstance I may offer to mediate. I will not go so far as to adjudicate...

> How long would it take for average barbed wire to rust through? Most wire in the woods will break due to fallen limbs but I'm looking to date a barbed wire fence in ruin. Most of the wire travels directly through the middle of the tree to which it's attached and there are very few sections that actually connect two trees.

In Central Texas with about 30" of rain annually, it usually takes at least 100 years for barbed wire to rust enough to be compromised. If the wire was galvanized, then the wire should still be fairly sound.

The clues that wire has been recycled are that you see non-factory splices in the wire and different types of wire are used. five-strand wire fence is fairly standard in Texas.

I'm not sure that three-strands of wire would even be a legally sufficient fence. I assume that Pennsylvania has stock laws describing what constitutes a sufficient fence.

> I'm investigating a long-standing, time-honored line that may have ripened into a new boundary. The area in question is about 7 acres.

If you're trying to determine when the scraps of wire were attached to the trees, I wouldn't think there's any substitute for cutting a representative specimen down to count overgrowth rings. Choose a species that will tend to have rings that are easy to count.

Boring

Here's a link to Forestry Suppliers showing their "increment borers":

http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/search.asp?stext=increment%20borer

> I'm not sure that three-strands of wire would even be a legally sufficient fence. I assume that Pennsylvania has stock laws describing what constitutes a sufficient fence.
>

The typical barbed wire fence in this area is three strands. That is, the typical "woods fence." I've seen the five wire on posts but two are usually electric, one-strand wires. Barbed wire that runs through the woods usually points to a boundary. I see this three-strand trend as being correlated to our three notch witness marks. I've never seen a one or two strand. Usually it's three to five strands. I don't believe this fence to be for containing stock. Parole evidence implies it was for keeping the cows in but I'm not 100% on board with that. I suppose some might look at this fence and say, "That's no fence. It's remnants." I see it as landowners marking their line and eventually losing the ability to maintain it. The matron of the farm remembers hurting herself on the barbs when she was young and spry enough to frolic in the adjacent orchard.

> If you're trying to determine when the scraps of wire were attached to the trees, I wouldn't think there's any substitute for cutting a representative specimen down to count overgrowth rings. Choose a species that will tend to have rings that are easy to count.

Cutting a specimen would be quite an undertaking. I could have the attorney request a sample. We are preparing for litigation and every bit of evidence counts. I suppose most of the fence was destroyed by mother nature but the scars and intent remain.

I would borrow a chainsaw, though, because I'm not destroying my chain on that wire.

Boring vs cutting

I think I'd rather pay $40 for the bore than cut down a tree. This might become one of my tools. Thanks

One surveyor showed only the lines of possession. The other showed deed line and "line as surveyed by Mr. X." The current owner, as a younger man, actually helped maintain the fence.

The deeds come together like this: (The orange line is our deed line. Red is the surveyed fence. Blue is a survey line by others. Black is a parent tract for blue.