I came across these 1939 field notes today.
Yeah that would be nice. It seems that in our area only the DOT knows where their ROW is. I have even seen them reject monuments previously set for them by a subcontracting land surveyor.
Anymore you need to run like three miles of both sides of a ROW and calculate a best fit centerline and call 80% of the monuments off!
😀
Who said they don't have meaning?
The summer help that chained back XX.X feet along centerline from an even station stamped in the concrete on the side of the road. Then, sighting down the 'perfect' saw cut with their trusty right angle prism gave line to our monument setter whose back was a smidge stronger than his mind.
I think these monuments are very meaningful to those folks. The question is: Did any nearby property owners honor them?
Steve
[sarcasm]Yep, it is great to finally learn that the only reason r/w monuments were set was to provide busy work for summer help and the weak minded.[/sarcasm]
Those notes are great evidence of intent.
[sarcasm]Now all you have left to prove is that the monuments were set by licensed, competent land surveyors and that the circle of error is small enough.[/sarcasm]
What if another surveyor runs 3 miles on both sides but only 1 mile of his work overlaps with your 3 miles.....will they have a different right of way for the overlapping mile?
> What if another surveyor runs 3 miles on both sides but only 1 mile of his work overlaps with your 3 miles.....will they have a different right of way for the overlapping mile?
[sarcasm]well if they do they're not a very good surveyor..[/sarcasm]..:-P
The first retracing surveyor needs to put right-of-way markers at each end of his three-mile retracement, on both sides of the road. Then, the second surveyor needs to accept the first retracing surveyor's monuments as absolute (like original section corner monuments), and only retrace the next three miles to get whatever section he needs that is not in the first section. They can then record their surveys and the three-mile endpoints will be angle points in the right of way.
After that, the highway department can move their fences to a foot inside the new licensed land surveyor's monuments. That will clarify everything and save the taxpayers lots of money.
> Yeah that would be nice. It seems that in our area only the DOT knows where their ROW is. I have even seen them reject monuments previously set for them by a subcontracting land surveyor.
>
> Anymore you need to run like three miles of both sides of a ROW and calculate a best fit centerline and call 80% of the monuments off!
>
> 😀
That scenario happens a lot with Idaho ROW. Two of the 20 monuments will fit the plans and the rest are out to lunch. Or we'll find a batch of 4 mons that fit perfectly, most likely all set from the same setup, while the next batch of mons will fit within themselves quite well but they don't fit the previous mons.
> Those notes are great evidence of intent.
>
:good:
Probably safe just to retrace the entire ROW of the highway for the full length 😉
It suddenly strikes me as funny that we have have as much debate about highway rights of way locations. For a great part, they are often the best-known boundary locations everywhere you go. They have a big, multi-million-dollar roadway in the middle of it, the older ones have huge concrete monuments sticking several feet out of the ground and they have solid, well-built fences marking their limits. Ask any adjoiner where the highway right-of-way is, and most of them will point right to it. Yet we bicker and argue about the exact location. Many of us think we have to locate a hundred right-of-way makers, establish best-fit lines and curves halfway in-between them, come back out some precise distance, and ignore the big markers we used to even establish our lines.
What the heck? Isn't it clearly marked well enough? is any land owner going to worry exactly where a two-bit rebar falls between to big concrete monuments? aren't they going to simply enjoy the land up to the fencing?
Use the original highway markers, unless they appear to have been moved or misplaced by a great deal. put your individual property corners in-between them and everyone will be happy except the next surveyor who comes down the road.
As to "they" (the DOT), changing their mind about where the highway is...I don't know about that; but a licensed land surveyors opinion as to where the right-of-way is, is a professional opinion by an expert. If some DOT employee "doesn't know" they might be incompetent. If a licensed surveyor with the DOT disagrees with you, I would advise you listen to his or her reasons, but remember that he (or she) is another licensed surveyor that might just have a different professional opinion than yours. (still listen to them, they might have more experience retracing highway rights of way than you do).
Well, I think some are missing the differences between situations.
The note is pretty clear that those monuments will be used for purposes of any further property acquired. This from a 1939 monumentation of an existing user roadway, which in most jurisdictions were required by statute to be laid out based on the existing location, as public easements.
Retracements, establishments, easements, contracts, takings, original lines; oh no!
One size doesn't fit all. Hint, if a Buffalo was the original designer, monumentation of that location might be controlling. If a bunch of folks with fake hair decided they needed more, monumentation of their intent that disagrees with their words probably is going to be a problem. Not to get political or anything:'(
I was told by two different TxDOT surveyors that the formerly ubiquitous Type 1 monuments (24" conc towers anchored by half a dozen or so lengths of 1/2" rebar) were all set by mowing crews way back when as an indicator to where the good taxpayers' lawn mowers should cease and desist, and that said monuments were effectively useless for the determination of r.o.w.
which would explain alot...
Interesting stuff from the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department:
ROW Release Survey Requirements
DDSM:beer:
Nice of them to tell you to blow off all their monuments and hold the control they don't provide isn't it. At a minimum they should put in a solid control point every couple of miles and dimension their ROW from there. No, No, No. let's just have every surveyor reinvent the wheel.
I got in a little tiff with a UDOT ROW engineer at a meeting one time. He was telling us to list all the distances to three decimal places. I can't remember maybe he wanted the bearings to a tenth of a second. Anyway he wanted the math to work out without rounding that made it flip one way or the other. I said, I can't measure that close not even near it, can you? The discussion went downhill from there!
The reasoning in Dan's links is the same as have been recited for most of the past 40 years. I'm certainly not picking on Dan here. Incorrect location, poor methods, set by maint. people, etc etc. It is clear that in 1939 the purpose of these non - two bit rebar type monuments was to put the adjacent owners and the road authority on notice of these visual marks that seperate the public ROW from private ownership. They didn't exactly bury them like we do now. It's not a question of who set them and how good or bad did they performed the work although that's what most of us look at. The question is for what purpose were they set and have they been used for that purpose since. We see far too many shiny new two bit survey marks a few inches to a few feet away from these original monuments. These excuses have been developed to satisfy the math craving. I'd say a surveyor has more legal ground to stand on in determing a ROW as originally monumented and used than on a measured distance from a centerline that is 5 to 10 times removed from the original alignment monuments.