Altered documents and/or forgery.

In 11 years of signing plats, no. My dad had one about 10 years ago done. I actually did the survey on this tract, and they didn't like the fact that they'd built the house on the wrong tract, and my survey showed it wasn't there, and they found some OLD survey of my dad's with the RPS instead of RPLS seal and "manufactured" a survey that satisfied a bank. Then they got upset when we called their hand on it.

I couldn't tell you when my dad started it, but as long as I've been working here, we sign the plat in disappearing blue ink (you can't copy it but it will scan) and an impression seal with a statement that "IF THIS PLAT ISN'T SIGNED IN PALE BLUE INK AND THE SEAL PRESENT IN CRIMPED FORM, IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AN UNLICENSED COPY AND PRESUMED TO CONTAIN ALTERED OR UNAUTHORIZED MATERIAL." I've had some title companies squeal at that statement but it ain't coming off. It's also on the field note description.

I don't use the foil like Kent does, not that it's wrong, I just don't do it, but embossing seals are EXCELLENT for keeping the crap down. Unless you rub it with the graphite, it doesn't show up. I get two to three calls a month about needing a signed and sealed copy and I ask them to read the last sentence in the notes. Then I tell them that we provided plenty of copies to the client but that I'll email them a pdf to get them going until the originals show up on their doorstep.

> I have had several documents altered and used by others
>
> In the mid 80's a lawyer began the practice of taking hardcopies and adding changes to make divisions to my drawings and property descriptions with the help of xerox copier to work around hiring and paying for the service
>
> A few choice phrases from some popular movies and to let him know that KARMA has made a visit in his life with pictures solved that problem
>
> One surveyor , now long past on, would take another's drawing and xerox the portion he was working on and add a line or two or three and put his signature and seal on to avoid drawing the entire subject again
>
> There was the case a few counties away around the same time where an unlicensed surveyor was using a dead man's seal to continue his career resulted in a trial and fines and an order to stop all surveying with no hope of ever becoming licensed.
>
> A little over 10yrs ago another lawyer began to make divisions on paper and was using my descriptions in an altered form to put in new deeds. I never saw any drawings or property descriptions with my name on them, I simply ran across deeds without surveys during my court house search. He did issue title opinions. A reminder of the need of an actual document to substantiate an actual survey put him in a possible bind that hopefully has stopped his habit.
>
> Those of mine and the cases I've been told of by others, always involve people that can easily afford to hire surveyors. The common thread always appears they are at a level of confidence that they think is bullet proof and who is going to call their hand.
>
> I've never had a problem in this digital world. I do not give out my entire digital drawing unless that was a part of the work order.
>
> On a typical sending of drawing info, I scrap the points and descriptions and let the receiver pick and choose from cad what they want to convert into coordinates. Mostly, I send a color PDF from cad or of a hardcopy

That wasn't in Marion County now was it? 🙂

I do something similar. Every plat has the following note right under the seal:

"This is not a true, certified copy unless the signature hereon is an original signing."

And I always sign in blue ink. And I NEVER copy my signature.

If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences

In 40 years of surveying I have about seen/heard it all, but the following is my personal nightmare:

I once worked with a Georgia PE in North Georgia for a few months. A year after moving back to Florida I learned my seal and signature had been forged onto a high dollar boundary survey in Atlanta, turned out by the PE's office. The map contained numerous errors. I suspect the field work was junk also. An Atlanta engineering firm tracked me down (to have me come back and correct my work), and even with my denials of knowing anything about the survey my initial involvement in the situation was one of being forced to answer for "my" negligent work. It became my burden to "prove" I had nothing to do with the survey. I filed a formal complaint against the PE with the Georgia Board even while I was under a cloud of "suspicion" by the authorities (including the local District Attorney who happened to have a personal relationship with the PE). Long story short...after about 2 years I received a letter from the Georgia Board informing me the PE was sending me a letter of apology, and if I was OK with his "apology" the case would be closed. As "explained" by the Board, the PE had been under a great deal of stress with family matters. If this PE was ever disciplined further by the Board I was never made aware, but I refused to participate in this sham of justice, and withheld my official acceptance of the apology. The Georgia Board had assigned the case a "medium" level of importance, and during the approximate 2 years it took the Board to act, the Georgia society (SAMSOG) had high level members present at Board meetings making sure this matter was not "forgotten". For awhile the client was pressing to have me pay to make them whole. Not a good feeling.

I made this comment short by fast forwarding over the nearly 2 years the matter took to play out, but I lost a great deal of money and time attempting to see some measure of justice. After 6 years and $5,000 paid to a Georgia attorney my Georgia license was finally reinstated (note: I remain skeptical, but will concede it is possible the actions precipitating this "inadvertent" loss of license were totally unintentional. Anyway, rather than file a new application and retake the exam, I chose to pay the money to an attorney to work on my behalf.).

My sincere condolences to any Georgia surveyor filing a complaint against a PE with the Board. The forging of your seal/name by a PE could complicate your life in ways you could not have imagined.

If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences

Now that is interesting.

My former boss, a PE, was the one who directed an employee to make changes on my survey without my knowledge.

I hope that our experiences with PE's is a rare occurrence. Most PE's that I know are true professionals and recognize that they are not land surveyors. Some think they are but most do understand the differences between engineering and land surveying.

This can be a subject of another post at some point in time.

JC

I did construction layout on one of the projects named in that list, but it was long before Mr. Harvel came along.

> Every plat has the following note right under the seal:
>
> "This is not a true, certified copy unless the signature hereon is an original signing."
>
> And I always sign in blue ink. And I NEVER copy my signature.

I've got to ask, though. What prevents a person from just whiting out the note? The same goes for notes that say something like: "Unless my seal is in red ink and my signature is in sexy hologram ink, this map may be a completely fraudulent forgery."

This is why I prefer the foil impression seal. It can't be copied without looking like a copy to just about any person of normal intelligence.

Yes

I was doing a very large amount of boundary work for a small engineering company about 8-10 years ago. Most of it was boundary surveys of property to be subdivided. We would do the boundary, the engineer would then do the design and grading plans, we would then do the construction layout, layout the lots and prepare the final plat. I never sent a digital file to them with my seal or title block. One day the PE and I had a phone convesation. I don't remember how it came up but he mentioned a final plat for a certain property. I had not prepared a preliminary or final plat for that one. The PE mentioned that his staff had prepared it for me. I asked him to please send a copy to me for my files. He did and what I saw shocked.
me. My seal and signature were on their title block. It was very obvious that my seal had been cut off of a paper copy of another plat and taped to the s/d plat. I could see the tape marks. I immediately went to a lawyer for advice. He said if I had no knowledge of it, there was no liability for me. But now that I knew of its existence I could be held liable if I did nothing about it. The lawyer had no faith in the BOR and suggested I do the following and if they didn't comply go to the BOR and also file a lawsuit: call the PE and explain t e error of his ways. Demand every copy of every one they had "prepared" for me along with a signed letter acknowledging what they had done and that every copy and original had been retrieved and sent to me to be destroyed. They had to get copies back from Planning and Zoning and other government offices. I then began getting calls from P&Z and the other gov officials. I was completely honest and sent copies of the letter to them. That company no longer exists. I think it was a fitting end. Maybe I should have filed a complaint and/or lawsuit. He got what he deserved and I didn't have to go through the hassle complaints or lawsuits would have caused.

[sarcasm]There was not enough technology in Marion County to achieve that end result[/sarcasm]

You're right - nothing prevents someone from trying. But this gives me something to help protect myself by very easily looking at a plat and saying that it is or isn't a true, certified copy.

> .... What prevents a person from just whiting out the note? ...
Nothing, of course. But if you can show that you always include such a note on all your documents and then one shows up without the note it would be evidence that something was up.

If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences

I was told that the Georgia PE/LS board has several questions about drainage on the LS
examinations. However, many of the county engineering departments will not accept
drainage design on subdivision projects completed by land surveyors.

FWIW, I log my signature. Everything that I've signed has my rubber stamp or an impression seal, my signature, date and a log number. I record the title of the survey plat in my log book along with the log number and other pertinent information. I have a variety of colored ink pads for the stamp and several different color ink pens. The same pen I use to sign is the pen I fill out the log book with. I realize that I am not necessarily going to stop someone from using my professional identity, but I like to think I will be able to show the facts if something ever does hit the fan. For what it's worth, I signed my 696th instrument on Sept. 6th.

If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences

That is what goes on in Tennessee. Our licensing law includes drainage, but many counties and cities do not accept any drainage designed by surveyors.

Our licensing exam includes several drainage questions, at least it did when I took the exam in fall 2000.

I do not practice any drainage design. I am just not comfortable doing it.

:good:

If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences

> ... After 6 years and $5,000 paid to a Georgia attorney my Georgia license was finally reinstated....
Shocking story. Guilty until proven innocent. Can you not sue the PE to recover your costs, plus, plus?

If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences

Norman,

I should provide an explanation re my license.

However, to explain this licensing snafu takes some doing. Bear with me. I'm afraid it's not what you likely may be thinking.

Licensed in Alabama, Florida and Georgia since the early 70's, license renewal notices from all 3 Boards had previously always arrived in the mail. (prior to the internet this was SOP) Alabama, renews every year, Florida and Georgia every 2 years. To this date (2013) neither Alabama nor Florida has ever failed to notify me regarding license renewals, and they still do it by mail. Over the years my practice has been almost entirely in Florida. Regarding Alabama and Georgia, there had been a couple times where for one reason or another I renewed a few days after the expiration date. When this happened I was always notified re the license having expired etc. You are informed by the Board when you fail to renew.

The 3 Boards had always mailed out renewal notices on a set schedule (I believe as mandated by law), and until I filed a complaint against this PE even the Georgia Board, for all of the previous nearly 20 years, had never failed to send a renewal notice!

Prior to mandatory continuing education some folks hardly ever gave their license a second thought other than to write out a check every year or every other year (depending on whether your state issued a one year or a two year license). With mandatory continuing education I now have a constant awareness of license renewal dates so I can be sure I have all the necessary education credits. During the era of mandatory continuing education you can't let the renewal date slip up on you without having already obtained the required credits, or else you will not be allowed to renew. Also, as I was living and working solely in Florida, the only wallet card I carried was Florida's. I put wallet cards and all other licensing material from Alabama and Georgia into a file folder somewhere, and forgot about 'em. Georgia licenses, as well as Florida's, are valid for 2 years. A current Georgia license expires December 31, 2014, and a current Florida license expires February 28, 2015, but 20 or 30 years ago they likely expired the same date. Anyway, my complaint against the PE was filed in the summer of the1st year of a 2 year licensing cycle. Also, it wasn't like I was not receiving correspondence from the Georgia Board. Actually, there was plenty of that going on due to the ongoing case. So, they knew me, and they had my mailing address.

At the end of the following year I received my renewal notice from Florida, but without giving it a much thought simply filled out the forms, wrote out a check, put it in the provided envelope and mailed it to Tallahassee. Unaware in that I never caught on that Georgia was messing with me, and for whatever reason had failed to issue my renewal notice. Consequently, my Georgia license expired on the last day of that year. But, I did not realize it, nor did the State of Georgia send anything informing me my license had expired. Nothing. No notice. No mention of what needed to be done to renew. Nothing. (I never researched to make sure, but my attorney told me the issuing of license renewals are regulated by law.) However, my correspondence with the Board re the complaint remained active and ongoing, and somewhere during the new license period (a period during which my license had lapsed and I had not yet become aware of it) the case was concluded. I remained totally in the dark regarding my Georgia license until 2 years later when I received my next renewal notice from Florida. When I opened the letter from Tallahassee a sickening feeling began to well up in me, as I began to think about when was the last time I had renewed in Georgia(?). That was when I went to the folder where I stored all my license stuff, and retrieved my latest Georgia wallet card. My sick feeling was confirmed. My Georgia license had been expired for 2 years. When I contacted the Board I was told I would need to file a new application, provide transcripts, provide letters of recommendation, and take the Georgia exam. I dreaded all the hassle, so I put it off for a few years. Then came the day I really needed the Georgia license. I was put in touch with a 'connected' Georgia attorney, and after explaining all the above, he assured me he could get my license reinstated without any hassle. However, it would cost $5,000 to make it happen. At this point, compared to my other option, $5,000 seemed like a deal. So, 6 years and $5,000 later, my shiny new license arrived in the mail (original license number). Also, once again the State of Georgia has resumed notifying me re license renewal. For the record: yes, had I been diligent enough I could have discovered what Georgia failed to do. Certainly, it wouldn't have been that hard. I get that.

Yesterday for the third time in 24 years I happened on a drawing of mine that had been added to without my knowledge. This time it was a recorded boundary survey with a leased area added that still had my title block, stamp and signature. Last time was a title survey with contour lines added. Previous was a topographic survey with an easement added. I get the feeling this has happened many times I donƒ??t know about.?ÿ
How common is this? What can be done? Each time I have read the riot act to the perpetrator but I think Iƒ??m just making enemies.?ÿ

@jcrume Cryptographic digital signatures would be good if everybody used them. But if people are accustomed to use digital files that lack cryptographic digital signatures, they won't think to object when a file from an unfamiliar surveyor that lacks such a signature shows up on their desk.

Another issue is that when deeds are recorded, the recording office may require they be put on paper, or converted to some format that doesn't support cryptographic digital signatures. In which case the security is lost.

I haven't had it happen to me yet, but when it comes to blatant fraud I would not spend any time speaking with the perpetrator.?ÿ I'd report it to the board in a signed and maybe even notorized statement sent via certified mail.?ÿ I would also contact my E & O insurer.?ÿ I'm cheaper than I'm vengeful, so I probably wouldn't sue the crook.