I'm getting ready to begin an ALT of a golf course which is part of residential development in which the home sites are defined by numerous plats, which do not include the course. It appears that the home-sites were plated in phases as part of the overall site plan. Here is my question, if the course was defined prior to the platting of the individual phases home-site plats do I need to tie/show all of the home-site lot corners on the exterior boundary of the golf course or just the angle points of the golf course. I figure the the combined point count is around 300 pins.
On a side note, how long do you think it should to search for and tie lot corners in mass. The site is relatively wide open so I would be using multiple RTK ties.
I would locate all the pins on the exterior. There could major discrepancies between these multiple plats you speak of.
General questions:
Are there substantial improvements along these common lines? Fences or do people's lawns just transition into the rough?
Have any of these pins been recently recovered?
Do recent retracements indicate agreement between the platted geometry and the monumented geometry?
If geometry is reasonable I would say 15-20 minutes per corner would be a reasonable average for recovering and presumably measuring with a dual base RTK set up.
What does the golf course deed say?
Are the multiple residential subs exceptions to it?
Are there golf course amenities and improvements on residential lots?
Does the golf course have any rights of use or easements in the yards?
Do any residential improvements, sewer lines and/or laterals encroach on the golf course?
Having worked on park and golf courses surrounded by residential I would say yes to the need to locate all property corners. Knowing what we did and found in my opinion RTK may not cut it. We did multiple static GPS and full traverse around the exterior. In staking out one house I had to locate the encroaching paved golf cart path in the back yard and the sewer manholes, some in the fairways. On another the split rail fence crossing the back yard at an angle was an out of bounds marker. The lot extended farther.
What has to be understood is that such projects span many years and are fluid. Nine holes may be finished and in use years before the full 18. Someone may figure out how to squeeze an extra lot in. More often it is change of use. An area originally laid out for townhouses is switched to single family homes as the market requires it. Bed rock may force a dogleg into rear yards or the sewer into the fairway. Doing it right now can profit one down the road. Even though one township was not accepting the sanitary sewer as public, they still required it to be fully easemented such that the township could maintain and repair it should the HOA fail to. Writing or correcting those easements is bonus work.
Mag nails in golf cart paths is preferable to street surveying especially if you can use it locate an outbound monument in woods that is more than a drive and an iron away.
Paul in PA
> I'm getting ready to begin an ALT of a golf course which is part of residential development in which the home sites are defined by numerous plats, which do not include the course. It appears that the home-sites were plated in phases as part of the overall site plan. Here is my question, if the course was defined prior to the platting of the individual phases home-site plats do I need to tie/show all of the home-site lot corners on the exterior boundary of the golf course or just the angle points of the golf course. I figure the the combined point count is around 300 pins.
>
> On a side note, how long do you think it should to search for and tie lot corners in mass. The site is relatively wide open so I would be using multiple RTK ties.
Yes, you need to search, tie, and show all monuments on the boundary, regardless of when they were set or when plats were filed... and you need to show all occupation too.
Your task is to find and disclose all evidence of conflicting title and occupation: gaps, overlaps, weird claims.
"Dick, when do I stop searching? ... stop when you find it!" 😉
It wasn't an ALTA, but I had to do something like this once in that I had to create a parcel that was the golf course. Had all sorts of lots in several sections that made up the boundary. We located enough of the corners to verify lots and showed the angle points around the lots to create the boundary.
"...do I need to tie/show all of the home-site lot corners on the exterior boundary of the golf course..."
Well, of course!
> I'm getting ready to begin an ALT of a golf course which is part of residential development in which the home sites are defined by numerous plats, which do not include the course. It appears that the home-sites were plated in phases as part of the overall site plan. Here is my question, if the course was defined prior to the platting of the individual phases home-site plats do I need to tie/show all of the home-site lot corners on the exterior boundary of the golf course or just the angle points of the golf course. I figure the the combined point count is around 300 pins.
>
> On a side note, how long do you think it should to search for and tie lot corners in mass. The site is relatively wide open so I would be using multiple RTK ties.
John, I'd have the crew search for and tie all the plat corners as they may be the best indication of a Boundary dispute resulting from an overlap/gore with the previously defined course. If the course was defined prior to the plats as you mentioned, was it monumented on the ground and has the course defended that line against the abutting landowners? Sounds like no? Is the course publically owned? Are there covenants in the home owners deeds or on the plats about the course? There is but one common boundary line but has that line changed over time due to potential AP claim arising from a Plated monumented lot overstepping its bounds and the course not defending it's line. Does the course have intentions for using your work beyond the ALTA to assist in policing its boundaries with the land owners? Vice Versa? There may be some additional work there for you if they do. ROS work. They may just want a loan or refinancing and need the ALTA checked off their lenders requirements.
Relative Positional Precision:stakeout: per the standards:snarky: should be good with RTK, and as you said, I'd perform multiple ties, preferably from different primary control stations.:gammon:
Watch out for those footpaths:whistle: :dog: , servitudes:tv: :mp: , water features:rain: , and encroachments:car: .:-/ (Without expressing a legal opinion, of course);-)
I'd also watch out for the ROE :mail: onto those properties best to send a letter to every owner you are going to cross onto and or serve them with door hangers. If you are doing this in Oregon that is.o.O
I understand the need to tie all of the corners if the golf course was part of the plats that define the home sites or for that matter in an adjacent plat. My question is more along the lines of a phased development in which the course was created an initial plat from which the home sites plats were developed in subsequent phases. This would result in the home site plat corners as actually being closing points on the exterior line of the senior lot lines from the initial plat.
It is mute point now that I got a copy of the description so I get locate several hundred pins. Oh Joy.
The real fun is going to be the whole right-of-entry process.
If you were surveying a parcel and were aware that the adjacent parcel had been split with one of the new division monuments being purportedly along the boundary common with your client, would you locate that 1 monument?
Why would the answer be any different if you are aware of several dozen such monuments?
They are purportedly along your client's boundary. Senior, junior, or simultaneous, the answer should be obvious. Yes! You have to locate each one.
Section 5.A.ii. The location, size and type of any monuments found (or set, if Table A, Item 1 is requested by the client, or if otherwise required – see Section 3.B. above) on the boundary of the surveyed property.
That's any monuments along the boundary, not just controlling monuments.
Additionally, you have to locate any improvements along the boundary.
Section 5.C. Lines of Possession, and Improvements along the Boundaries
i. The character and location of evidence of possession or occupation along the perimeter of the surveyed property, both by the occupants of the surveyed property and by adjoiners, observed in the process of conducting the survey.
ii. The character and location of all walls, buildings, fences, and other improvements within five feet of each side of the boundary lines, observed in the process of conducting the survey.
iii. Without expressing a legal opinion as to the ownership or nature of the potential encroachment, the evidence, location and extent of potentially encroaching structural appurtenances and projections observed in the process of conducting the survey, such as fire escapes, bay windows, windows and doors that open out, flue pipes, stoops, eaves, cornices, areaways, steps, trim, etc., by or onto adjoining property, or onto rights of way, easements or setback lines disclosed in Record Documents provided to the surveyor.
:good: :good: :good:
> I figure the the combined point coun is around 300 pins.
At 15 min a pin: $10-15k for that alone. And you're in big trouble if you need to get in a fence, meet a dog, or a talkative neighbor.
If this is a client that trusts you, no problem. If not, I doubt they will see the value. This will likely go to the surveyor that doesn't tie out the corners. Facts of life.
You seem to be hinting that all the other lots may be junior, and so the pins indicate line only, and not distance into the course. That maybe true, but the problem with an ALTA is that if you don't show the possible problem, it may be your insurance that pays, and not the title insurance.