I am not going into great detail here, but I have a very specific question.
Has anyone ever seen an ALTA Survey where a boundary was not performed?
What would be the point of such a thing?
> Has anyone ever seen an ALTA Survey where a boundary was not performed?
I'll go a stretch and say that isn't possible. An ALTA is fundamentally a boundary survey. It would be possible to use the standards and the associated Table A as a guideline to developing a scope for a topographic survey.
No - and it's no stretch at all for me to say that such a thing is not possible.
I could see where you would do an "as-built" to ALTA standards, but without the boundary I don't see how it could be an ALTA. I'm thinking of something that takes up 5 acres in a section and sits right on the quarter corner.
Never
The only situation I could see something is if you were doing an ALTA of a cell tower lease or something like that where a boundary of the parent parcel was not required, but only the lease area.
I have done many of these types, but we did survey and monument the lease area.
> I am not going into great detail here, but I have a very specific question.
> Has anyone ever seen an ALTA Survey where a boundary was not performed?
Lots of ALTA's occur where no boundary is set, and there is no public record. If that is what you mean, than it is common.
If you mean without a boundary at all, I don't think that is possible. One of the things that an ALTA does (the primary purpose?) is to show the relationship between boundary and occupation.
ALTA surveys are supposed to be based SOLELY on a Title Insurance Commitment Report and its supporting documents.
I cannot imagine that EVER not including a legal description. The Schedule 2B - Exceptions could be very interesting to see.
It amazes me how many Title people and Paralegals do not really have clue what an ALTA is and what is required from them to perform such a survey. All they know is that "somebody' told them that they needed one. Evidently they no longer teach reading in college.
It seems as though................
someone raised this question several months ago and there was a report of how it could be done legitimately. Does anyone else remember this?
In my case, the boundary has always been a critical part of the job.
Thank you all for the responses. I concur with the thinking it just isn't possible, especially in our State. This is one I have to think through the rest of the way for myself.
Exclusion of Table A - Item 1 would constitute such a situation
Unless you don't count a lease area as a boundary, I can't think of any other situation that wouldn't, call for the boundary survey to be done.
The ALTA standards use the language "make a boundary determination."
I know of at least one state where the statutory definition of a boundary survey per the state standards has language to define a boundary survey as a means to "mark" the limits of a property.
This state's board has issued a statement that if property corners are set as part of the ALTA contract, then the state standards of a boundary survey as laid out in the state minimum standards of practice apply. If the item requesting property corners being set is not included as part of the ALTA contract, then the survey will fall under a general "catch all" section of the state minimum standards called a special purpose survey.
So whether an ALTA is a "boundary" depends on what you mean by a "boundary"
FWIW - I hate the term ALTA minimum standards. From my point of view they are NOT minimum standards as though of by surveyors because there is no one to enforce the standards. Unless a state has incorporated them into their regulations they are, in fact, nothing more that standardized contract language that had to be jointly drafted by ALTA and ACSM (now NSPS) because historically, surveyors were not providing a work product that met the clients needs (from ALTAs point of view) and some surveyors were not sophisticated enough to prepare their own contracts for these services without being taken for a ride by attorneys and title companies and opening themselves up to a boat load of liability (from the ACSM/NSPS point of view).
A boundary is not limited to extents of fee simple title. A lease boundary is just lke any other boundary, it's only the accompanying rights that make it different.
"I cannot imagine that EVER not including a legal description."
Excellent point.
How do you provide "Title Insurance" if there is nothing noted to which you have "Title"??
ALTA's are superseded by State Regs if those regs are more stringent. The only REAL value of an ALTA is that a Title Search is performed and that documentation is provided to the surveyor.
No boundary provided, then you have a "site survey" which an ALTA does not cover, nor will most agents sell a policy on such a survey. They tend to want to know what they are insuring. In detail.
Face it, you are dealing with an individual that has no clue what he/she is doing, yet they will collect a fee at least twice what you are billing and no one will fuss about their rates. Yours, naturally, will be deemed exorbitant.
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Surveying. B-)