It's also a good idea to have language in your contract that says the survey will only be certified to the ALTA standards.
An ounce of prevention will be worth a pound of cure, most of the time....;-)
Cheers,
Radar
i like duane's line of thinking better than the 'just say no' crowd. i don't mind signing something like that if i can prove it is true or modify it to be true.
Let the attorney know that each item that he/she is looking for is already certified to within the 2011 standards. They are only looking for an "out."
I have actually responded to an attorney (more than once) with a point by point location of each item within the standards. Usually I get a good response. I also try to include language within my contract that specifically calls out using only the 2011 certification.
> Let the attorney know that each item that he/she is looking for is already certified to within the 2011 standards. They are only looking for an "out."
>
> I have actually responded to an attorney (more than once) with a point by point location of each item within the standards. Usually I get a good response. I also try to include language within my contract that specifically calls out using only the 2011 certification.
The attorneys who do this type of work on a regular basis already know what they want is covered in the standards. They love it when the surveyor writes a 20 or 30 page novel with every conceivable detail on the things in their certification. The more time you spend explaining what they already know, the more time they get to charge to their client and the more evidence they have for why their bill is so high.
The good ones know that no surveyor in their right mind will certify to some of the crazy crap they propose. They also know that they justify their fee by asking. Not by succeeding, but by asking.
Larry P
We have seen repeated posts on this board and others about this problem and there are two camps, those that follow the ALTA standards and those that dont. If you choose to certify to something other than the standard ALTA survey certification, then at least remove the words ALTA from the survey. This way you are at least not in any violation of standards (ALTA or otherwise).I am of the mind that you should tell the attorney that his certification is already covered under the ALTA standards and you were hired to prepare an ALTA survey, if you do not do that then you are breaching your contract and would be subject to possible litigation by the client. You can accept all the additional liability you want, but IMO you would be violating ethical standards if you say you have done an ALTA and you have not.
We are being caught in the middle of a pizzing contest between ALTA and the lawyers. Lawyers realise that they are not governed by ALTA. We have not realised that yet. What are the enforcement powers of ALTA? The ALTA "Rules" are simply "requests" for information. That document is terribly one sided.
Where is the checklist for what the ALTA members must do? There isn't one. Why?
I just found out what "provide the most recent title insurance commitment report" actually means. A client gave me a 9 year old title insurance commitment report for me to base my survey upon. I sent an email to ALTA and asked if this was legit. The respose was that ALTA "could not force anyone to order new title work".
ALTA and NSPS have worked out a system and the lawyers do not like it. An attorney may have an ALTA/NSPS survey per standards OR he may have a survey that meets the state's minimum technical standards. Cross breeding is not allowed.
Now as to their certificate; I have sent MANY emails th The Department Of Housing and Urban Development requesting copies of their Flood Hazard Boundary Maps. They have REPEATEDLY assured me that no such item exists now, nor have they ever published such an item. Don't know where this gem of an idea came from.
I had a request similar to this last summer. Tell the lawyer that if you do change the certification, the survey becomes something other than an ALTA. Tell the attorney that you would be glad to use his name such as "Barney's Survey" in the title, because it is no longer an ALTA and you're not following the contract.
What we should do is sell "Survey Insurance". Title lawyers "run" the title, but then they sell a title insurance policy to cover...what? Their own faulty title work? So we should survey that 5 mil. shopping center, and then act as insurance brokers..." I will certify if you buy a survey policy from me".
Can I start the 20 page certificate I sign with:
"I surveyed the property on a dark and stormy night..."
I will repeat what an attorney with one of the big law firms told me when I balked at his long form of certification: I have an obligation to my client to ask the surveyor to use that form, however, I also tell my paralegals to be very careful with any surveyor who actually signs it because it means they don't know what they are doing or don't care.
It's a paradox, isn't it?
If you sign the non-standard certification claiming to have performed a survey in accordance with the ALTA standards then you haven't followed the ALTA standards.
Just say no. You really hold the cards here. If you refuse the lawyer has to back down. Are they really going to go out and get another ALTA survey done by somebody who will sign that cert? Of course not.
Stand your ground.
I'm no Superman
"that the survey shows the point of entry and location of any utilities which pass through this property;"
That one always makes me laugh and then I call the client and say, "The price just went up to 3 million as I do not have X-ray vision. Since I do not have X-ray vision, to satisfy that requirement I will have to dig a trench at least 30 feet deep around the the entirety of the perimeter of this tract."
I have never had anyone argue with that line of reasoning and once we have established that at least one of the requirements is ridiculous, I have little trouble with the rest.
Even after you have rewritten the cert to define what you want it to mean, I would still charge them 90% of the original price.
