I received a call yesterday asking for an update on an ALTA I provided in 2013. Guy says he is with First American (title). This sounds pretty routine and I assume the title folks are just looking for a quote as a favor to a client. I get the email from this gentleman and it comes with all sorts of crap attached. I start looking through the attachments and there is a dwg containing a title block with the logo for an outfit called "CDS" along with a box for the surveyors name under the title "CDS Approved Surveyor".
As a rule, ALL surveys that I issue come on MY title block PERIOD. This means that I generally don't do work for ALTA brokers as this is a deal breaker for them. I call the guy back and he answers the phone "First American, xxxx speaking". I ask him about the attachments and the title block. "oh yea, CDS is a subsidiary of First American" and yes they require that you put your survey on their title block. I tell him "No way, not today, not ever" and that all surveys I issue will come on my title block. He says that nobody has ever objected to putting their survey on their title block but he would ask his supervisor if this was a problem...
I have two questions, first are people really doing this? If so, WTF are they thinking? My surveys are my most effective advertising tool. Perhaps I have a different business model than most (I have an unlisted phone number and all my work is by referral only) but in my experience you get a healthy percentage of your business (and some of the most profitable business) directly from your previous surveys. You just can't find a better more targeted, more effective advertising tool than your surveys. If I were to begin issuing my surveys under someone else's title blocks I would be committing economic suicide.
I haven't taken the time to analyze this, but I suspect that every dollars worth of ALTA surveys I issue probably represents somewhere between $0.15 and $0.40 in future work that will come my way as a direct result of someone pulling my survey out of a file and dialing my number to get a new survey. Why would any surveyor agree to put his work on a broker's title block knowing that the net result will be a loss of so much future work? Why do you think these brokers want you to use their title block? It is because they are fully aware of this...and they want that future ALTA work to come through them, and not directly back to you. This is insanity!
In this case, my previous client had been the buyer (and hence the current owner) so I simply directed my proposal directly to them and bypassed the broker. I also forwarded the proposal to the broker so that they will be aware that the client has my proposal (if nothing else this should cause them a little consternation).
My second question, is there not some inherent conflict of interest in First American entering directing survey business to themselves (their subsidiary) from their title clients? Even if there isn't, it doesn't really seem appropriate to me.
In general I have no problem with brokers acting as an agent for clients and charging a fee for that service. I can see where there is a need for this kind of service. But most of these brokers don't operate as an agent, they want to sell surveying services without the hassle of actually running a surveying firm. I also strongly suspect that they do not disclose to their clients how much they are really charging for their services...I suspect that the client never sees the invoice from the actual surveyor who provided the survey and has no idea what kind of premium they are paying for the broker's services.
BobM
Quite obviously there is a conflict of interest. It should be banned in all jurisdictions as a part of our function is to protect the public welfare, not the welfare of some humongous corporation to whom we are beholding for everything.
I have never had an ALTA Broker ask me to use their title block.
Every broker who has ever contacted me requires the use of their Sheet and their Title Block. I was stupid enough to say yes once - never again.
What you described is clearly a conflict of interest.
I would have several other questions.
- In your state is a company required to have a certificate of authorization (CA) or corporate professional license to contract for surveys?
- If yes does either First American or "CDS" hold a current CA?
- If a CA is required and neither has such an authorization have you forwarded the entire package to your state board of registration?
- If you do not report this will you in violation of state laws? (Specifically aiding or knowingly permitting unlicensed surveying.)
"Nobody has ever objected to this before".....hahaha.
By the way, sign this certificate and add it to your ALTA survey.
You want HOW MUCH? No other surveyor wants more than $200....
All you have to do is find the corners on the east line and stake the line, I don't want a whole survey.
No, everyone has objected to that before. Some might have agreed because they were hungry, and the client told them that everyone else does it. But most guys I know would refuse.
Unfortunately brokers do not need a CA or even a licensed surveyor on staff in this state. They are free to do as they please...only the licensed surveyor is subject to the rules.
I raised this issue a long time ago but nobody seemed to care...
I did a survey for this particular company CDS around the time I was starting up my business due to the downturn. I was hungry, did the survey, put it on their template and everything. It took 6 months to get paid and by the time I got paid I wasnt so hungry anymore because things were getting better. I learned from my mistake and dont think I will ever do that again, hopefully I wont have to get that hungry again.
US Surveyor? what a joke.
Wow. I never knew First AM was doing this type of brokerage service. I knew the did the Express map's in lieu of an ALTA for some properties.
I have done some surveys for a broker that was on their standard title block, but it also had a place for my logo, company name, etc. I also did a few updates and bypassed them on the updates because the client contacted me directly.
I only had one instance where it took a long time to get paid. Most of my experiences with this particular broker were good, as of late, most of the prices they were getting were way too low for me to even get close to getting the job. I do not understand the business model of giving away your services. I'm solo, and I am loosing jobs to guys with employees. I just don't get it.
In Mississippi, if a "broker" offers to provide surveying services to a client, that is considered practicing surveying and they must have a surveying certificate of authority (any firm that is any type of business entity, Inc., PLLC, etc must have a COA and a full time PS emplyee). Most of them have done just that. They have "hired" a surveyor that is licensed in multiple states (the most I have seen is 46 states) as a full time employee. What I have seen from the rfp's that I sometimes get from them, is they are now attempting to subcontract the field work with the PS that is their employee signing and sealing the work. It's hard to believe, but there are licensees that will do this.
Jimmy, I feel your pain brother. I had an attorney that I have done a lot of work for over the last 15 years contact me in January about doing 4 ALTA surveys for his client. They were all around 8 - 10 acres, with probably 2-4 days of topo shots. Two of them were in my hometown about 10 minutes from my office. I prepared a proposal, sent it to him and he said everything looked good, he'd get approval from the client. He called me back wanting to know if I could do them any cheaper, the client had a quote from a national firm of $2500 for each site. I didn't do the surveys.
Two weeks later, I saw an instrument set up on one of the sites and being like any other surveyor, I stopped to see who it was. I know the surveyor (who is licensed in MS and TN) that did them. He has a solo operation and told me he works almost exclusively for this firm now. Thinks it great, he gets $1500 for each one he does (no matter where it is) and all he has to do is the fieldwork and prepare the drawing. (So the "broker" was getting $1000 on these). He told me he is doing at least three a week, sometimes more.
I don't worry about this type of competition since usually they get burned eventually. I have learned to sit back and wait for the client to come back to me when they need it fixed. It's nice to tell them that we will get started on the survey once we have received a check for $x,xxx.xx and will bill them every two weeks until we are through.
Jimmy Cleveland, post: 335971, member: 91 wrote: I have done some surveys for a broker that was on their standard title block, but it also had a place for my logo, company name, etc. I also did a few updates and bypassed them on the updates because the client contacted me directly.
I only had one instance where it took a long time to get paid. Most of my experiences with this particular broker were good, as of late, most of the prices they were getting were way too low for me to even get close to getting the job. I do not understand the business model of giving away your services. I'm solo, and I am loosing jobs to guys with employees. I just don't get it.
"I just don't get it."
I think you do get it Jimmy, it's the lowballers that don't get it. They completely misunderstand successful business practices and don't understand at all how much they are damaging our profession.
Been ask to do that before and....
Nope, I would never.....
Jimmy Cleveland, post: 335971, member: 91 wrote: I have done some surveys for a broker that was on their standard title block, but it also had a place for my logo, company name, etc. I also did a few updates and bypassed them on the updates because the client contacted me directly.
I only had one instance where it took a long time to get paid. Most of my experiences with this particular broker were good, as of late, most of the prices they were getting were way too low for me to even get close to getting the job. I do not understand the business model of giving away your services. I'm solo, and I am loosing jobs to guys with employees. I just don't get it.
I'm the same way. I don't mind the broker logo, but no survey is going out of our office without our logo on the drawing.
We don't do a lot of work for brokers. I can't get the prices low enough. There is one company we work for, but I'm not sure they're a "broker". They do their own surveying, and occasionally they pick up a few projects a little too far from their office.
Joe W. Byrd, post: 335984, member: 10015 wrote: all he has to do is the fieldwork and prepare the drawing.
I guess I don't understand what this guy is saying...Is he, or is he not signing the survey? If he is not, how is the signing surveyor providing "direct supervision" and "control" of the work?
Is he saying he isn't reviewing the title work? He isn't creating the certificate? That he isn't providing a finished survey drawing? Is he doing the boundary analysis? is he setting the corners? If he isn't doing these things, then he is basically just subbing out the field work and the rough cleanup on the drawing. I don't see how that kind of arrangement would be a good deal for either party myself.