Carl, forgive me, I don't mean to attack you personally. I'm just pointing out what I see as a tradesman's attitude that I perceive of the profession as a whole, and I hope we can talk about it without you taking it personally. The fact that surveyors are for the most part jacks-of-all-trades who do both boundary and construction staking blurs the matter. It's something the profession needs to talk about, so I'll be thick skinned if you will.
Bottom line was, never mind the unwritten rights and all that, the adjoiner had a really nice lawn, the clients wanted to go drive stakes in it as part of their petty war, and that offended me. I realized we only had half the story, if even that, and that clients were manipulating me (and the boss) by having us come that day when the adjoiner was out of town. Never again. Next time, before going out, I'll ask if we can reschedule to a time when the adjoiner can be there.
If that's not standard boundary practice, it should be.
The clients essentially wanted use us to legitimize their situation by proxy. For us to trespass the line across the obvious occupation on their behalf. They could hire an unlicensed layout guy to run the line between the corners and call it good, and that guy would have none of these worries. I just didn't want to involve myself or the boss in it. They could use the existing corners and line points (turns out one wasn't pulled) to run their own line with a string, or let the fence company do it. But they were under the impression that all the line points were gone, and wanted us to check the corners, too.
If the boss had said, you're overthinking this, just stake it, I might have. I might have also said, well, I think I'll pass on this job. And I think he would have respected that. But he listened to me and decided I had a point, and modified his instructions. He later wrote me an email saying, this is big, we really need to improve how we communicate with the clients and all the adjoiners before, during, and after all our future jobs.
And back to your previous post, Mr. Zeiss:
1. That practices are generally accepted does not always make them the right thing to do.
2. I'm the field guy, the boss is the license. It's not for me to say things to clients regarding opinions. All I said to the clients was, I'm seeing something I need to ask the boss about, this may be delayed, he will call you tonight to explain.
3. In our state, the licensed surveyor has no legal mandate to have an opinion, only to report the facts, which had already been done 2 years previous.
4. If it were a simple construction staking job, it could be said that we "failed" to do what the client asked for. We weren't correcting or advocating anything, we were refusing the potential liability for trespassing ... they had basically hired us to trespass and vandalize. They could do that themselves or hire the fence company to do so for them, but I declined and the boss agreed with me. They didn't hire me, they hired the boss. My job is to be the boss' eyes, ears, and nose, and to not incur liability on his behalf.
Note that when I say trespass, while that may have "boundary" meanings, this was a very practical decision, where I felt any reasonable person without special knowledge would regard that area as the adjoiner's property, based on occupation. If he called the sheriff, the deputies would not care a whit about the monuments or the line, they would say it appears you are trespassing.
When I say vandalism, we were close to poking holes in his lawn and covering it with spray paint without his permission. Do not unto others as you would have them do not unto you, & if I got home from work and found that crap in my perfect lawn I'd be pissed.
So I did what I felt was right. It won't help the situation but at least we won't have done something that will haunt us or give us liability.
Yes, some seem to believe that occupation has some magical power that should turn surveyors into agents for land theft.
I would drive a line of stakes in that lawn, spray the heck out of them, and help put up the fence. But, I wouldn't ask my survey tech. to do it for me alone.
Good move to call the office and do as the boss decides. But it's too bad that this kind of thing is being taught as a policy. There's going to be a lot more land theft attempts if the public thinks surveyors will not do their job and instead help to validate their unwarranted claims.
Half a bubble
Maybe your instructions for the days work were not clear enough, you should have known before you set foot on the site that you were placing points on a disputed line.
I understand you are being thorough and trying to do a good job.
According to you, the licensed professional who employs you had already decided where the line belongs 2-3 years ago.
Was the occupation evidence new?
Did you think your boss did not evaluate that evidence?
Did your boss not understand that the points you were to set were going to be used to build a fence?
Is there some reason you believe his work is in error?
Why are some people responding to this assuming half a bubbles boss is incompetent???
Yes I would knock on the door. In fact I would have notified the neighbor before showing up in the first place.
No I would not be trespassing in my state.
Put me in the hamfisted group. Stake the damn line.
You need to understand that not only is your boss potentially liable for damages to the neighbor for his wonderful lawn and gnomes, he could also be potentially liable to the client for delaying a project if he had promised stakes for construction purposes on a specific date. Very few contractors of any sort sit around a jobsite and wait without sending a bill for it.
Half a bubble
No such promise was made with regard to time or delivery.
We did verify that the corners-set-by-others were undisturbed, and that the one remaining line point was undisturbed.
The situation with the fence way off is fairly common and can be an uncomfortable situation.
When it happens, it is what it is.
I'm working on a boundary survey right now where a boundary is monumented by a 1991 Survey about 8 or 9 feet west of the fence (favoring our side). The 1991 Survey was done for our west adjoiners. I have talked to the owners over there and they are aware of it and they don't seem to have a problem with it. I see no justification to use the fence which was put there for unknown reasons. The 1991 monuments are not perfect but we will use them as the boundary because I don't expect perfection in anyone's work.
At first blush I thought the fence might have been measured in by the Deed scrivener but now I see it doesn't fit any scenario under the Deed plus I just noticed this week that there is a much older large fence post right on the line on one of the east-west lines which matches the one right on the line to the west. I showed the boundary monuments to one of the owners (the one that commissioned the survey) and he said he knew it was inside the fence but he didn't know it was that far over (he thought it was about 5'). He seems reasonable.
My subordinate employee (also licensed) endeared himself to the older lady next door by making friends with her dog 🙂
GunMan
That's right, after sufficient care is taken, I agree, stake the line!
I have learned the hard way, though, do not let clients rush you. But eventually when the proper solution is evident you have to put your license out there.
I think you were right to hold off. You need to be able to line between the actual monuments and you need to make sure they are still undisturbed.
I have had discussions with clients and they usually understand that in a dispute situation extreme care needs to be taken and is to their benefit.
Building a fence through someone's landscaping is a sure way to launch a law suit.
The client's attorney may recommend a less direct and heavy handed strategy though. However if the client wants the line staked and I have determined its location then I would do it. It just might be a day or two after they asked for it.
The fact that the client is abusive towards you is not a good sign. I had a client get abusive towards my helper and I told her I'm giving her her retainer back right now and have a nice life. Wow, she got scared of me and backed down. So we continued and finished the job with her mostly harassing me which is OK. There is no excuse for harassing someone who is working for me, though.
I do not want to put down anyone for trying to do the right thing. If your instinct is to stop staking because something is wrong then stop staking. It has saved my butt more than once.
If the client is abusive then pick up and go home. Dave K is completely correct.
I tend to empathize with the client being told "You have to wait to put up your fence because you MAY have waited too long to put up a fence." and/or "I know we staked the property line 2 or 3 years ago but now we are not sure where it is."
Neither statement raises the status of the profession.
If you only stake lines when the neighbors agree to the location that is a horrible business model.
Please do no take this as a personal attack as it is not meant to be.
I'm a pigheaded guy with bad communication skills. I enjoy these arguments because it is a theoretical job to me and I am not under the pressures of the actual job.