All of my classes are full every semester. Most aren't going for a license in Land Surveying right away, but I do see several every semester that now have a P.E. and are coming back to get that P.L.S. Some are going directly for the P.L.S.; about 2-3 every semester.
I became licensed at 24. But yes, there does seem to be less coming into the profession than going out.
I'm not sure if this is entirely due to people not wanting to become surveyors. There are probably quite a few that can't get the experience requirement under their belts.
For the states that have degree requirements, it's going to be hard for the fresh graduates to get their 4 years of experience if they can't find a worthwhile job.
Likewise, in states that don't have degree requirements, the laid-off crew chiefs are not getting their experience, and the ones who are not laid-off have probably seen their hours and salary cut and can't afford the time and money to seek the license. Sadly, it’s been my experience that (some) companies will lay-off the “high paid” experienced crew chiefs first and promote an I-man at a lower wage.
It's a pretty depressing state we are in.
YB-
Maybe you need to contact someone in Ontario Canada ?
Cheers
Derek
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!
We don't have enough young people coming into the profession. The average age of a licensed surveyor is fifty-something and will soon reach 80 years old! There are XX% fewer surveyors now than there were just YY years ago!
The engineers/architects/unlicensed/[fill in your bogeyman of choice here] are going be allowed to survey and squeeze us out completely!
AAAAaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!
OK, now take some deep breaths and calm down. Take a look around at all the surveyors you know. Are they all turning away work and working overtime just to keep up with the work they have? Are they so sought after that they are routinely turning down lucrative job offers? How many are getting lucrative job offers? How many are even fully employed? How many are wishing they would get even one mediocre job offer?
In the current economy, there is no shortage of surveyors. There is no difficulty for clients in finding a surveyor to take on their projects.
In a good economy like we experienced just a few years ago, many of us were turning away work and had backlogs of work stretching out anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of years. We were hearing some grumblings then from clients that there were not enough surveyors. Does that mean that there was an actual shortage, or might it be indicative of something else?
I think that when people were waiting several weeks to get a survey done, they were grumbling because most expect a survey to be much like calling out a plumber for an emergency toilet repair or an exterminator to get rid of a termite infestation. They expect that 1) no matter the type and purpose of a survey, we just show up, measure a few things and we're done in a few hours or less, and 2) since it's just a few hours of measuring per job, we should be able to get to theirs in no more than a few days and then complete it, maps and all in just a couple more days.
That's a perception problem. If they were hiring an architect to design a house, they would expect to not see the finished plans for several weeks. If they were hiring an engineer to do site design for grading and utilities for that house, a fairly simple plot/grading plan, they again would not be taken aback at having to wait several weeks for the final plan (it "engineered" after all - not that most know what that means, but it sounds very involved). Even for fairly simple legal services - maybe it's just a matter of the lawyer having his paralegal fill out a standard form - people aren't terribly put off at having to wait a couple of weeks or even a month. After all, those are all professional services and there must be a lot that goes into them behind the scenes.
It takes less people to do almost any aspect of our job than it did 40, 20, or even 10 years ago. When I started surveying, 3 person crews were standard in the private sector, with 4 person crews not being uncommon. For the past 15 or so years, it has been 2 person crews with 1 person crews rapidly becoming the norm for many types of projects and in many areas of the country.
It used to be that most crews had an LS as the chief and 2 to 4 unlicensed guys, with one or more of them with an eye to becoming licensed. Now, unless it's a solo operation, it's the norm that an organization has an LS or two in the office and several one or 2 person crews of unlicensed people.
One CAD operator does the work of 3 to 5 hand drafters. A lot of research that used to require a full day of driving from one govt office to another or to utility companies, museums, title plants, etc. are now done in a few hours on the internet or via email.
In short, less people get more done. Not as many people are needed to do the work.
Which means that not only does it make sense that there are fewer licensed surveyors, but because these surveyors DON'T NEED TO BE REPLACED at the same rate they are leaving the profession, the average age will necessarily go up until we arrive at the actual number of surveyors needed to fulfill the societal needs.
With precise measurement becoming increasingly easier to perform consistently and accurately, the role of expert measurer, once one of our primary and exclusive roles, will be filled by semi skilled labor and technicians. The PLS will be, and in most cases, already is considered to be overqualified for that role.
The role of the PLS will be primarily one of analysis and management of professional, technical, skilled, and semi-skilled staff. It will take fewer surveyors to fill these roles than it took to fill those and the expert measurer roles of the past. But the unique skills of the PLS to competently provide the analysis and management of survey information is not a skill set shared by other professions, and is not one that will become obsolete.
In spite of recent misguided efforts to deregulate surveying in FL and TX, the role of the PLS is safe from being taken over by engineers or anyone else, and there is an adequate number of new licensees to fill the void left by those who leave the profession.
The sky is staying put.
Youngbuck I believe the US is in its worst financial crisis since the great depression which reflect directly on income.
You stated you wanted to start looking for something else... I would humbly suggest that you should be battering down the hatches to ride out the storm. you have done the hard yards achieving qualifications.
I was pleased to hear last week end that a GIS graduate has decided that he would like to do his post graduate study in surveying! No doubt in US, as is here that there is a trend to GIS employment positions that uses the cadastral data.
Perhaps now that we have electronic bells and whistle equipment and more surveyors are moving into the electronic era that the young people will perceive the excitement involved in gathering TS, GPS, Scanning data and then transforming it into meaningful out put for use by specialists.
I suspect that there are two types of survey firms. The large that provide a multitude of surveying services for large projects. The small that literally specialise in an areas like domestic and small business boundary and engineering surveying. The latter firms group obviously really hit by the economic downturn. It is also likely as is indicated here that many because of the economy are solo or plus one or two in size. The prospects for growing not rosey.
The older surveyors will stay on as they still have contacts, where as there are many in the middle age who are disenchanted. Of course in lower ages there is little chance of employment in the small firms.
That said Youngbuck hang in for the up turn and continue gathering experience as you are a country mile ahead of many of your colleagues who do not have the education or expereince.
RADU
> None of the ones I was referring to have ever stepped foot on, or had any association with ETSU. I'd say West Virginia has more ETSU graduates than West Tennessee does. I only know of 2 of us over here.
Roger that... I forgot what part of TN you were in. I thought SE TN for some reason.
> I'm 28 and just got approved to sit for my PLS this coming Fall...I see alot of opportunity in the field because of the retirement age of a majority of the Licensed Surveyors out there. I honestly think it is because of the amount of work that is required to obtain licensure and make any real money. I have a four year degree in Geography and still had to get a two year degree in Land Surveying and obtain 4 addtl years of experience before even being able to apply for my PLS Exam. Many of my peers have jumped straight into higher paid postions with their four year degrees alone. With a four year degree already under my belt it was hard to accept a low paid survey tech postion to gain the expereince I needed, but with my eyes on the prize I have been underemployed now for four years and will soon have my license.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Rich
Geography is an excellent degree for a land surveyor, there shouldn't have been any need to get another two year degree in land surveying to sit for the exam. Geography is land surveying. What state are you in?
> State said I needed a four year degree. Got it with honors. State said I needed four years of experience after receiving said degree (worked full time while attending night school for five years). Got it. State said I needed to pass Fundamentals Exam (done after receiving degree) and Principle and Practice Exam (done after acquiring four more years of progressive experience). Now after acquiring two licenses in two different states, only making $40,000 a year, and no chance for advancement within the company (due to downsizing) I'd say I am ready for a career change at this point and I'm only 29. Many may say if I don't like it where I'm at to move on to another company, but fact is my company treats me well and there just isn't anywhere else to go. We actually happen to be one of the busiest companies in our area and that isn't saying much. And to say it's about the money is wrong because it's not. I was interested in surveying because of the challenges that were presented to you everyday. Those challenges just aren't there anymore. Doing the occasional topo or small lot survey just doesn't cut it for me.
If you want more of a challange (and money) hang your shingle. I hung mine ten years too late.
Don't make long term career plans based on short term trends.
The average age of surveyors today is no big issue. We never seem to actually retire.
But physicians here are approaching an average age of 54, and they retire to Florida and Arizona faster than they die off.
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!
Mr. Page,
I never said the sky was falling.
You make several outstanding points. My point was I don't see the youth coming in to the profession. It is true that my view is limited of the survey world. Yes, the amount of people it does take to do the work we once did has been reduced, but thats true in almost every profession (though i still have to go to town hall and look up everything just as I did 20 years ago).
You mention that we don't have to fear engineers, architects, etc.. moving in and taking the role of surveyors, but the attempt in Texas and Florida, which are two rather large states, gives us evidence that some feel we are either expendable or replaceable.
I sure do agree with you abpout the perception of us from the public..people think we oacte a few pins, turn ninety and BAM we're done...ugh.
Sorry Joe
Re-reading my previous post, I can see where one might have read it as a personal attack or attempt to ridicule. Thanks for not reading it that way and for responding professionally.
It wasn't my intent to ridicule you. I was just opining on the oft repeated concern, sometimes expressed with a tinge of panic, that surveying is a dying profession based upon sheer numbers and the demographics of age.
I think that those are easily explained by the advances in technology.
I also think that as long as we have far more surveyors than surveying jobs during economic slumps, and have so many that have a hard time getting professional level fees during economic peaks because of heavy competition competing on price, there is no solid evidence of a real shortage of surveyors.
The challenges in FL and TX were more about government looking for ways to cut costs and being unaware of the importance of licensing surveyors. In each of those cases, once the politicians decided to listen and surveyors educated them, those challenges went away. Neither was based upon a push by a related or seemingly related profession trying to gain or take over the authority and function of surveyors.
On a personal note regarding the changing role of the PLS, at least as it pertains to medium and large organizations, I gotta say that I really miss the fieldwork. It's getting to the point that my family is going to think I'm losing my mind for hiking out in the USFS land on weekends with the goal of finding section and quarter corners.
> That said Youngbuck hang in for the up turn and continue gathering experience as you are a country mile ahead of many of your colleagues who do not have the education or expereince.
The slow down has been a nice opportunity to sit for another state's exam in my case. Being slow afforded me the opportunity to read and comprehend the laws of a colonial state 1,700 miles from where my PLSS experience and 4 year degree came from.
This is true.
I know a lot of archeologists with advanced degrees that make less than me.
I've taken a job that I hated for more money (against the advice of a friend) and, he was right, it wasn't worth it. I'm not making that mistake again.
