I recently bought a piece of property, that according to the deeds says it has 13 lots. The deeds from 1940 and 1973 all mention of plots being on file, however the county clerk has no clue of a File T. So what we have now is 4 sets of deeds of different properties that all mention a File T, the properties have not been surveyed since 1903. The survey mentions trees that are no longer, a road that use to be, a creek that use to be, fence posts that use to be, and dry branch of the creek. There is some dispute to a section of my property, these other individuals have never had a survey since the early 1900's either. However, we have some proof to show that my home once had a coal house on this said disputed property. Would a land surveyor even be able to sort out this mess? Its very convincing that I should own the disputed property, but unfortunately you're always stepping on someones toes. Please let me know what could be done. Since I have no clue how a "file T" could just disappear within the local government.
> I recently bought a piece of property, that according to the deeds says it has 13 lots. The deeds from 1940 and 1973 all mention of plots being on file, however the county clerk has no clue of a File T.
It would be helpful if you were to mention the state and county that the land in question is situated within. That would narrow down the possibilities considerably.
Bell County, Kentucky.
Here is the property in question, have a view the disputed land is to the left, next to a row of buildings beside those buildings is the torn down coal house.
> Bell County, Kentucky.
There are some Kentucky surveyors who post to this message board who may be able to offer some useful information about the Bell County records. There are also some surveyors in other places (Texas being the worst example) who may try to give advice without actually knowing anything about Kentucky practices. Ignore those folks. :>
Although licensed in Ohio and not Kentucky I have worked there from my early days under the supervision of a Licensed Kentucky Surveyor and have worked with Kentucky surveyors off and on until a few years ago.
"Would a land surveyor even be able to sort out this mess?"
The right Kentucky surveyor would have a good chance. Understand that in Kentucky, probably more so than in some other states, the surveyors are somewhat under the thumb of the attorneys. Some attorneys like to see ambiguity in property descriptions as they stand a good chance on only being sorted out in court. Your surveyor will be up against this. My advice is to seek out a local attorney by asking around for a referral. Sometimes a local banker is a good place to start for advice about an attorney. Ask the attorney to recommend a surveyor. Expect to pay for the advice. Expect to pay a bit for the survey if the last was 1903. The research and investigation will be significant.
You really need a local Eastern Kentucky surveyor to sort this out for you.
Good Luck!
Haha! Thanks it doesn't seem like a lot of land, but I'm putting up a fence so I want it to be perfect. I'm just afraid with such old records, I should just shut up and let the neighbor have the 7 ft Haha. Thanks Kent, I'll see if I get any hits from KY folks.
Thanks Carl! I really think I need to find one, not only is this neighbor complaining about the fence, but the caretaker of the property on the other side of mine is complaining. So I think to be fair I should get it on paper.
1903 is like yesterday in Kentucky. Just kidding though it is very common, and if there were a boundary survey done on your property or one of the adjoiners, the odds of the plat of survey being recorded are very slim. Local knowledge can be a large asset in taking on a job like this and you can find local surveyors through the Kentucky Association of Professional Surveyors website here.
http://www.kaps1.com/find-a-surveyor/
I personally know several gentlemen on the list that shows up when you search Bell County and they are top-notch surveyors. This is what we do and exactly why I got into this treasure hunting profession. Somebody knows somebody who has a copy of File T and kept the records of a long deceased surveyor or at the very least, they can figure it out.
If you get it surveyed, do a favor to the next generation and have it recorded. Transfer the property from yourself to yourself and include the plat and perhaps legal description, or perhaps Bell County has a good way to index a plat. If you don't, 50 years from now, someone is going to be posting on SurveyorConnect about this property that hasn't been surveyed since 1903.
The property was bought from family, I haven't filed the deed as of yet, so hopefully if I do get a survey then I will include that as a new legal description. Our county clerk (which was recently indicted) use to assist people in fixing a new deed, so if I do file it with out the legal description then later I can file for deed changes, I own the property out right thankfully, so no banks are to be held in the issue. Thanks for that link I'll give one of them a call. The previous deed even has an easement for "African Americans", and that basically if the previous found that any were on the property, then the previous owners could null and void the new deed! I don't reckon that would be valid still, but an interesting find.
Unfortunately those racist covenants are all too common. They are not enforceable, I am sure everyone has seen them, I have seen no Jews, no Polish, no Irish, pretty much no anybody not a WASP. Other seemingly outdated covenants are still enforceable, so long as they are constitutional.
I'm reminded of Louie De Palma..
..played by Danny DeVito as the dispatcher on Taxi. When Latka, the immigrant mechanic in the garage became a US Citizen Louie was distressed about what "America was coming to..".
"Whatever happened to the real Americans?" Louie lamented, "You know, the Irish, the Italians, the Germans!" :snarky:
> If you get it surveyed, do a favor to the next generation and have it recorded. Transfer the property from yourself to yourself and include the plat and perhaps legal description, or perhaps Bell County has a good way to index a plat.
Not to hijack the thread, but is this common practice in non-recording states?
It isn't as common as I would like as far as recording a retracement survey. Our licensure board is one of the best in the country, our state society is a great organization, and progress is always being made. My biggest concern about surveying in this state is the lack of a public repository for retracement surveys. We are working on it. I would estimate that 95% of the survey plats that I create are not recorded.
> > If you get it surveyed, do a favor to the next generation and have it recorded. Transfer the property from yourself to yourself and include the plat and perhaps legal description, or perhaps Bell County has a good way to index a plat.
>
> Not to hijack the thread, but is this common practice in non-recording states?
Yes common practice. I've worked with descriptions in current deeds copied through several transfers. With the transfers involving three generations of the same family. Many of these have the distances still in chains and links.
However, several of these descriptions had been IMPROVED during transcription to remove surveyor shorthand. You know N45°15'30"E a distance of 325.45 feet became North 45 degrees 15 feet 30 inches East a distance of three hundred twenty five and 45 one-hundredths feet. Just cleaned up a bit to make sure it was correct.
The real fun ones are those that cite area in acres, roods and perches. The legal eagle changed the roods and perches to linear measure converted to feet.
so to paraphrase how to find a surveyor in Kentucky... you gotta go to the bank, and hope they can point you to a lawyer, that might know a surveyor, who might have the old unknown records from a century ago??
seems legit! 😉
> I recently bought a piece of property... trees that are no longer, a road that use to be, a creek that use to be, fence posts that use to be.... There is some dispute ... Please let me know what could be done.
I hope that you end up with most of the property you thought you were buying. There is a good chance you won't. I think you must realize that this will be no small effort on the part of the Surveyor. You may well find yourself paying more for the survey than you did for the property.
Yeah, it's pretty much like finding the bootlegger, just a different set of references.
I have been shot at while surveying but never in eastern Kentucky. The people are polite and helpful to those who are polite, introduce themselves, and state their business up front.
> Unfortunately those racist covenants are all too common....
The Supreme Court ruled these restrictions illegal in 1948.
Well the land is pretty much a guarantee that I currently understand what I own. However the 1903 deed mentions several of factors. Since the trees that the deed note, are hard wood trees many of the stumps are still rotting away in the ground. The deed mentions 2 creeks, the dry branch creek that runs down beside my house, and Pucketts creek which is a creek 2,000 ft away that someone is actually living on. The main road use to run behind my house and at the bottom of the hill was a garage, a big size field, and stairs up the hill side. Then the main road came through in the 60's and the owners branched off a drive way from the old road on the hill. I've contacted a surveyor he said the usual min. is $600 at $65/hr for just him and another $65/hr for researching, goodness! I think I'll get my family together including the eldest and try to survey it myself and then go from there to see if it'd be worth it. Does anyone know what they mean by "Poles"?
Check this out! lol
