The work of the day consisted of searching for some further evidence upon the ground to support the emerging picture of where varlous lines had been run by surveyors between 1839 and 1939 in the course of producing the field notes (Texas: metes and bounds descriptions) for various tracts of land granted by the Republic and State of Texas.
One corner of particular interest was a stone mound that had been built on October 12, 1879 to mark the corner of a certain 160 acre grant made to an actual settler under the laws in force in Texas at the time after the proof of his occupancy and settlement of the land.
The 1879 surveyor described it merely as a stone mound on the East side of a particular branch of a named creek, but gave topo calls at other corners to which his survey connected that narrow the search radius considerably. As far as I was able to determine, the last time this corner was recovered was in 1927 by Travis County Surveyor M.V Homeyer, who described it as
"Large old rock mound 4.6 vrs. E of fence on East side of deep hollow"
The photo below shows what remains a bit more than 90 years after Mr. Homeyer and almost 138 years after the original survey. The guys wearing the floppy straw hats are biologists who were interested to see the thing. I asked their permission to lop a few dead limbs off the tree to be able to get a direct tie via GPS to it.
A close up of the actual mound, which has a cedar (Ashe juniper) growing out of it that is almost certainly less than 90 years old. Oh, the center of the stone mound is still 4.6 varas East of what almost certainly is the same wire fence that was there in 1927.
Kent, your sixth grade grammar teacher is rolling over even as we speak....
"...that is almost certainly...."
Definition of oxymoron plural
oxymora
??k-si-??mo??r-?
- : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (such as cruel kindness); broadly : something (such as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements or words.
paden cash, post: 440025, member: 20 wrote: Kent, your sixth grade grammar teacher is rolling over even as we speak....
"...that is almost certainly...."Definition of oxymoron plural
oxymora
??k-si-??mo??r-?
- : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (such as cruel kindness); broadly : something (such as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements or words.
In addition I don't think Kent should trust this Honeyer fellow who made no mention of the stone's patina, clearly incompetent practice.
paden cash, post: 440025, member: 20 wrote: Kent, your sixth grade grammar teacher is rolling over even as we speak....
"...that is almost certainly...."Definition of oxymoron plural
oxymora
??k-si-??mo??r-?
- : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (such as cruel kindness); broadly : something (such as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements or words.
I'm glad you sat through 6th grade grammar, but as anyone (such as, say, a land surveyor) who makes judgments based upon evidence will know, certainty exists mainly as a relative condition. Only a person who is willing to look a fool will testify with absolute certainty as to events that transpired before he, his parents, or his grandparents were born. What he testify to are fact patterns that tend toward reasonably certainty or that veer away from it in the direction of Oklahoma.
An oxymoron would be something along the lines of "that is dubiously certain". You're welcome.
Dave Karoly, post: 440028, member: 94 wrote: In addition I don't think Kent should trust this Honeyer fellow who made no mention of the stone's patina, clearly incompetent practice.
Well, considering that Max Von Homeyer was a very experienced surveyor who had surveyed all over Texas for the land trust that held the International & Great Northern Railroad Company lands, I'm willing to believe that in 1927 he could tell the difference between a large stone mound built in 1879 and one built in 1914. It's common knowlege that stone mounds in Central Texas acquire characteristics that readily show their age. This is, of course, the reason why it is generally poor practice to rebuild an old stone mound.
I told the biologists that I thought that the wire fence that the corner was 4.6 varas (that's 12.8 ft. Americano) distant from had probably been built in about 1920, but didn't explain the basis of that deduction.
There you go again, selling your "Texas" sparkling water that is clear as mud...;)
cer?útain
??s?rtn/
adjective
adjective: certain
- known for sure; established beyond doubt.
synonyms: unquestionable, sure, definite, beyond question, not in doubt, indubitable, undeniable, irrefutable, indisputable. (btw, the hyperbole is mine)
Kent McMillan, post: 440033, member: 3 wrote: Well, considering that Max Von Homeyer was a very experienced surveyor who had surveyed all over Texas for the land trust that held the International & Great Northern Railroad Company lands, I'm willing to believe that in 1927 he could tell the difference between a large stone mound built in 1879 and one built in 1914. It's common knowlege that stone mounds in Central Texas acquire characteristics that readily show their age. This is, of course, the reason why it is generally poor practice to rebuild an old stone mound.
I told the biologists that I thought that the wire fence that the corner was 4.6 varas (that's 12.8 ft. Americano) distant from had probably been built in about 1920, but didn't explain the basis of that deduction.
That's cool. How many caps and pins are you gonna stick in this one?
paden cash, post: 440034, member: 20 wrote: There you go again, selling your "Texas" sparkling water that is clear as mud...;)
cer?útain
??s?rtn/
adjective
adjective: certain
- known for sure; established beyond doubt.
synonyms: unquestionable, sure, definite, beyond question, not in doubt, indubitable, undeniable, irrefutable, indisputable. (btw, the hyperbole is mine)
The obvious problem with your method of relying upon Engish teachers to inform you about certainty is that professional land surveyors understand certainty to not be an absolute thing, but something subject to relative levels of confidence. This is in fact a fundamental concept of professional practice, i.e. that all propositions exist on the continuation between doubt and certainty.
paden cash, post: 440035, member: 20 wrote: That's cool. How many caps and pins are you gonna stick in this one?
I think that one rod and cap will do it. The cap will get stamped "FD OLD SM" and have both the pt. no. and my professional identification on it. If that cedar were on a client's property, I'd cut it into kindling. But in this case it's protected. The folks who own the tract have been very nice about allowing access for my work, and I'm willing to oblige.
Kent McMillan, post: 440036, member: 3 wrote: The obvious problem with your method of relying upon Engish teachers to inform you about certainty is that professional land surveyors understand certainty to not be an absolute thing, but something subject to relative levels of confidence. This is in fact a fundamental concept of professional practice.
No Kent. It is a finite thing in the real world. You're either certain about something or your not. It's like being pregnant or dead. You either are or you aren't...ain't no middle ground.
Kent McMillan, post: 440039, member: 3 wrote: I think that one rod and cap will do it.....
You certain about that? 😉
paden cash, post: 440040, member: 20 wrote: No Kent. It is a finite thing in the real world. You're either certain about something or your not. It's like being pregnant or dead. You either are or you aren't...ain't no middle ground.
I think the word you wanted instead of "finite" was "binary". Virtually everything that can be said to be a matter of opinion exists on the continuum between doubt and certainty. You may truthfully testify that you are absolutely certain that your OPINION is such-and-such, but when the basis of that opinion rests upon evidence for which some alternate explanation cannot be disproven, I think that your hat will fill up faster.
paden cash, post: 440041, member: 20 wrote: You certain about that?
I'm certain that I plan to only install one rod and cap. That is a subjective statement about which a person can express certainty.
I am rather curious about the proper (Texas) procedure for determining the EXACT ??center? of stone mounds such as this. Obviously this is a job for Star*Net, which means that EACH (and every) Stone (and/or pebble) must be positioned with great precision. Once this is done, does each stone/pebble receive a particular weight based on size, shape, patina, or does each stone/pebble carry equal weight in the Least Squares solution.
Loyal
Loyal, post: 440045, member: 228 wrote: I am rather curious about the proper (Texas) procedure for determining the EXACT ??center? of stone mounds such as this.
There are two really good sets of data from which to determine the center of that mound. There is the measurement of 4.6 varas made in 1927 by an experienced surveyor, almost certainly at a time when the cedar wasn't growing out of the mound. So the expectation is that the center of the mound falls 4.6 varas distant from the fence, which amounts to a range of 12.64 ft. to 12.92 ft. from the line of the fence standing plumb with 12.78 ft. being the most probable value.
There is observation of the mound itself. The rocks weren't just dumped in a random pile, but were built up around a center. Examination of the pattern of the mound should identify the center of the arrangement after making allowances for the displacements resulting from the cedar.
There are also practical considerations. The entire point of setting a rod and cap with a punchmark that defines the corner within about 1mm is so that future surveyors can use the same point for the corner. Experience indicates that this is good practice as long as the designated center isn't obviously wacky or wrong.
As for using software to do what an experienced surveyor can do, I won't criticize you if you feel the need for training wheels, but I would find such aids unnecessary.
BTW, the 1927 surveyor was Max Von Homeyer who was born in Germany in 1858, arrived in the US in 1880, and worked for the New York and Texas Land Company as a surveyor and draftsman from at least 1887 until some time before 1918 when the company was dissolved. In 1920, Mr. Homeyer reported his occupation as Civil Engineer to the census taker and from 1927 through 1938 served as Travis County Surveyor. He died in 1957 at the age of 99.
He would have been 69 in 1927 when he was at the corner I found today, which I consider moderately impressive considering how rough the terrain is.
paden cash, post: 440040, member: 20 wrote: No Kent. It is a finite thing in the real world. You're either certain about something or your not. It's like being pregnant or dead. You either are or you aren't...ain't no middle ground.
[MEDIA=youtube]V2f-MZ2HRHQ[/MEDIA]
Robert Hill, post: 440065, member: 378 wrote: [MEDIA=youtube]V2f-MZ2HRHQ[/MEDIA]
I think it's more a failure to recognize that an expert opinion doesn't require absolute certainty and that it is in fact a pitfall to claim to be absolutely certain of facts outside one's knowledge.
Well
Kent McMillan, post: 440068, member: 3 wrote: I think it's more a failure to recognize that an expert opinion doesn't require absolute certainty and that it is in fact a pitfall to claim to be absolutely certain of facts outside one's knowledge.
Well hell one can get all philosophical about it.... there are degrees of certainty.
I like a nice heathy sceptiscm particularly in these times never mind 4 centuries ago.
Robert Hill, post: 440072, member: 378 wrote: Well
Well hell one can get all philosophical about it.... there are degrees of certainty.
I like a nice heathy sceptiscm particularly in these times never mind 4 centuries ago.
It isn't a strictly academic question if ultimately a surveyor is in the position of giving an expert opinion in court. The surveyor who gets too far ahead of the facts with his or her claims to absolute certainty will usually be in for a rude awakening on the witness stand. The honest opinion is the way to go, one based upon experience and specialized knowledge without necessarily being a conclusion that he or she is willing to bet his life on.
