For years we have spoken about GIS on these pages. Now it occurs to me that I don't really know just exactly what GIS is that a big Civil3d drawing isn't.
On the local version of craigslist this morning the local natural gas company is advertising for a GIS Technician at a rate of pay comparable to a Survey Tech or Party Chief. The ad includes the following:
[INDENT][INDENT]General Essential Functions:
Û¢ Reads and interprets construction data and sketches.
Û¢ Enters data into system.
Û¢ Generates maps and engineering drawings and sketches.
Û¢ Verifies and revises engineering records.
Û¢ Researches and retrieves data from internal and external sources.
Û¢ Maintains inventory of mains and services.
Û¢ Organizes files, documents, maps, and drawings.
Û¢ Trains, assists, and provides feedback to less-experienced workers at the direction of supervisor, which may include providing feedback to supervisor on progress of training.
Û¢ Performs other tasks as required, including those in lower levels, and in General Task Bar #3 as identified in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, with training as needed.
Û¢ Acts and communicates in a professional, respectful, and cooperative manner in connection with all activities associated with NW Natural.
Û¢ Follows supervisory instructions and is flexible and adaptable to changing conditions and expectations.
Û¢ Maintains punctual, regular, and reliable attendance.
Û¢ Demonstrates the Company's core values and complies with all Company policies and procedures.
[/INDENT]
Which list, with very minor adjustments, could be used for a Survey Technician job description. So just what is it that a GIS Technician does that a Survey Technician does not? Is it just mapping with different software? Or is their something more?[/INDENT]
The job differs because the tools differ because the use differs. How's that for a sentence?
Pure GIS is information attached to a geographic location. The precise location is unimportant. It isn't design, it's concept planning and resource management.
Over time we are seeing a mix of discovery of uses and the abuse of GIS tools and data that seem to encroach on our traditional turf. In reality it has been happening on a global scale for a very long time. The largest surveys on the planet are done by teams of scientists that dont include surveyors.
To more directly answer your question, there is less difference than 5 years ago and there will be even less tomorrow. The key is not to concern ourselves with the progression itself. We need to draw the line at actual encroachments and welcome them to the team where appropriate. As the GIS and Survey Tech positions come closer together we should see crossover that helps the process.
Sorry for the ramble. I thunk i answered tge question in there somewhere.
A GIS is a geographically linked database. The mapping is only half the battle. The other half is building and managing the information contained within the associated database. Also, knowledge in how to query useful information out of the system. Of the GIS techs that I know they seemed to do a bit of programming as well.
Geographical Information Systems have been around for a long time; we just didn't call it that...
Anyone that could measure with a tape and keep paper notes, could collect data; but that didn't make them surveyors.
Data collection, today, is much more complex. I don't think anyone could tell you ALL of the different ways to collect data; let alone how each one works. What you are collecting data for, makes a big difference on how you collect that data. The gas company is small potatoes when it comes to data collection. Just like a survey crew doing a topo for a plat and a survey crew working for USC&GS. They're both making a topo map; just one's a lot bigger that the other.
The GIS data in stored in a format that best serves the potential users. For example we locate a telephone/power pole and may determine the owning utility and connecting poles. That information gets shown on our map and we are done. The utility takes our map and creates a link to data that may include type of pole (wood/metal), guy wire attachment(s), other names of utility attachments (owner is telephone, attachments are electric, television cable and internet provider), date pole was set, date inspection is due, projected date of replacement, recording data (volume and page of deed) of original easement and name of granting owner at that time.
During the early to mid 1990s I helped create a database and map of utilities for an Army Corps of Engineers and City of Columbus flood control project. As the flood control design progressed the changes were documented combining the design/as built with the existing map and data. The map and data were handed to another contractor (Intergraph) to create the GIS compatible with the existing City of Columbus utility GIS. This type of GIS is used as a PLANT LIFE CYCLE management tool.
Esri software
Funny how the conversation is so often about the participation of Surveyors in the production of GIS products or the lack thereof.
I am interested in is the use of and application of GIS by Surveyors, it seems to me that it is a very under-utilized tool.
So many shops rely on the memory of their staff to keep track of where work has been done for example.
Robert Hill, post: 420255, member: 378 wrote: Esri software
That is a bit like saying AutoCAD is the only computer drafting system. However, there are a number of other GIS software options including open source and Bentley Map based on MicroStation. Yes ESRI has been setting the standard and even Autodesk MAP (a GIS/CAD combination) will export to ESRI ArcInfo formats.
Dallas Morlan, post: 420257, member: 6020 wrote: That is a bit like saying AutoCAD is the only computer drafting system. However, there are a number of other GIS software options including open source and Bentley Map based on MicroStation. Yes ESRI has been setting the standard and even Autodesk MAP (a GIS/CAD combination) will export to ESRI ArcInfo formats.
I agree. Thats like saying a total station is Surveying. Both GIS and Surveying are more than the tools we use.
Dallas Morlan, post: 420257, member: 6020 wrote: That is a bit like saying AutoCAD is the only computer drafting system. However, there are a number of other GIS software options including open source and Bentley Map based on MicroStation. Yes ESRI has been setting the standard and even Autodesk MAP (a GIS/CAD combination) will export to ESRI ArcInfo formats.
I've been around GIS systems about 30 years now. All of the municipal, parish(county, and state government) GIS have been ESRI based. All positions hired by these entities require ESRI experience.
Yes, there maybe some private concerns that may utilize other software but I would submit that for them
to interface with various government departments and utilities, they must be very ESRI friendly.
As for Autocad, it is the standard for design applications.
Microstation(Bentley), I have found them required at highway departments and a COE district(Vicksburg)for submittals.
These are my observations.
This past year our 8th grade is taking a STEM course and is using Autocad. School gets a student/educational license. Autocad gets to capture a marketplace and future user.
GIS software stores geographical information in data bases and uses queries to analysis and(or) plot information on to a base map. GIS technicians usually know SQL to manipulate queries, reports and forms.
thebionicman, post: 420244, member: 8136 wrote: Pure GIS is information attached to a geographic location.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 420245, member: 6939 wrote: A GIS is a geographically linked database.
Is it then basically surveyed points with longer, more detailed descriptions?
Dallas Morlan, post: 420253, member: 6020 wrote: The GIS data in stored in a format that best serves the potential users.
Is it then just different software?
billvhill, post: 420271, member: 8398 wrote: GIS software stores geographical information in data bases and uses queries to analysis and(or) plot information on to a base map.
Then it's the ability to selectively recover the information from the database?
I'm using GIS approaches more and more in field data collection and in maintaining databases for my data.
Having said that, I am not a GIS professional. True GIS is focused on maintaining and disseminating data and is heavily focused on integrated technology. I'm not. GIS professionals have only a passing concern for geodesy even though the G in GIS is for geographic. Positions just aren't the main focus. Of course, there are plenty of surveyors who have only a passing concern for geodesy, too.
GIS uses maps and data. Surveyors use maps and data, but as far as I can tell the overlap ends just about right there. I still think it's a myth that surveyors missed the GIS train decades ago. We can use some of the tools to make our work better though.
Every boundary monument I tie these days has a photograph or two of it. I also have a record of how that monument was located. My boundaries are all related to record instruments of some kind, which those instruments (plats or deeds) are all saved electronically in my job file. When I finish my plat I have a digital map (CAD) in georeferenced coordinates in my file. I also have a pdf of the survey, as well as metes and bounds descriptions and reports. Wouldn't it be nice to attach that information to a map (like Google Earth) and see all of the information related to that job as it relates to planet Earth? Someday we'll get there. Today surveyors are still largely satisfied with PNEUD data files with minimal information in the "D" column and a generally empty U column. But we'll want more someday and we'll need a database to manage all of that "more".
For example: I found a stake at the Northwest corner of Smith's 1 acre that I surveyed.
What kind of stake?
What size of stake?
What condition was the stake?
Was it bent, leaning, old, new, in concrete?
Did it have an ID cap?
Who's ID?
What style? (Surveyor's may change styles and colors that can indicate when it may have been set)
Was the top above the ground or below ground surface?
If so, by how much?
What was nearby? Witness trees? Fence corners? Pin cushions?
What record information is tied to the stake?
Is there a deed that calls for it? A plat that shows it?
Is there a photo of it?
Why did you survey it?
Who ordered the survey?
When did you survey it?
What process did you use to survey it?
Who was with you?
How much did you charge to do the survey?
Was there applicable sales tax?
Did you get paid?
How much confidence do you have that this stake represented the corner? Why?
All of these things could be of interest someday, and not one of them asks the question where. I'm sure there are a million other questions that one might ask. All of which could be answered in a well planned personal GIS.
I stopped reading the comments to respond.
Accuracy.
The underlying data is more important.
Take the power pole. They don't care of their location is within a few feet. They care about the utilities on the pole, the age, the last inspection, the expected time to replace and all the other data...
If the underground utilities had accurate maps, we would not need digsafe.
spledeus, post: 420288, member: 3579 wrote: Accuracy.
Are you saying that if the position was, by some miracle, accurate it could not be used in a GIS? I expect not. We understand that a low priority is placed on positional accuracy in GIS, but that isn't what makes a GIS a GIS instead of a survey.
spledeus, post: 420288, member: 3579 wrote: Accuracy.
Are you saying that if the position was, by some miracle, accurate it could not be used in a GIS? I expect not. We understand that a low priority is placed on positional accuracy in GIS, but that isn't what make a GIS a GIS instead of a survey.
I'm sort of a hybrid professional that can opine on this subject. I'm a civil engineer by registration, a certified GIS professional by experience, and also do some surveying where it is allowed by law in my state. A properly implemented enterprise GIS is quite an impressive and useful platform. Some of you are over emphasizing the importance of survey-grade accuracy in most GIS applications. It all depends on the type of data and accuracy needs of the end user. For example, if a municipality is mapping utilities for general planning, operation, and maintenance, do you really need the location of the manhole to the nearest 0.01'? Most web based GIS applications have a limit to how close you can zoom in anyways. As long as the manhole is located within a foot or so, that will be plenty good enough. Also the maintenance crews would typically only have phones or tablets, so their ability to find the points in the field is very limited. If data will be used for future engineering design or analysis, then that's an entirely different discussion.
When we work with local governments on enterprise GIS implementation, feature accuracy is always discussed. Right now we are working with a large parks and recreation department on implementing an enterprise GIS from the ground up. They want to integrate the GIS platform with a new work order software system, since the base data is the same. They have one Trimble Geo 7x centimeter edition that is used for accurate feature location for utilities, etc. But that is way overkill for mapping garbage cans and park benches. For features like that, we recommend an external Bluetooth GPS receiver, such as a Trimble R1 or similar, paired to a phone or tablet using Esri Collector app. The app is connected straight to a field version of their enterprise geodatabase.
We have also performed GIS projects that required survey-grade accuracies. We did a manhole survey for a small town and the mayor wanted invert elevations for any future engineering or analysis. So we used our RTK GPS to collect the data including attributes from the GIS geodatabase. Then imported the data into the GIS and created a geometric network between the manholes and pipes. The geometric network adds intelligence and topology rules to the system.
Esri also recognizes the need for high accuracy data collection, as they've added the capability to pair their mobile app with survey grade GPS receivers. They don't have the ability to use a geoid during real time collection, but you can process the data later using a geiod.
For those of you that aren't very familiar with real GIS, I recommend you do some research. The GIS profession is maturing, as they added a portfolio-based certification process several years ago. Last year they added an exam to the certification, so it's more rigorous to get a GISP now.
spledeus, post: 420288, member: 3579 wrote:
Accuracy.
The underlying data is more important.
Take the power pole. They don't care of their location is within a few feet. They care about the utilities on the pole, the age, the last inspection, the expected time to replace and all the other data...
If the underground utilities had accurate maps, we would not need digsafe.
That's my takeaway as well. It seems to most GIS operators and users, the accuracy of the information in the database is more important than the spatial accuracy of the feature. Heck, that's true of my office GIS. I want the information in the database to be accurate (Client, Job Number, Field Book, Date of Survey, etc.), the position was just digitized off of Google Earth or the County GIS. I just need to know about were the job was, not down to the hundredth of a foot.
GIS software is still remarkably weak regarding geodesy as far as I know. Can GIS software handle time dependent transformations? Last I heard, no. But it could be different now.
