A few weeks ago I readily agreed to cover for a friend at an upcoming speaking engagement. It is probably not a secret to anyone that ol' Paden will talk anywhere there is someone who will listen! My buddy has been picked for Federal Jury Duty and the probability of him "getting out of it" are slim to none. It's a short 4 hour seminar and it's in my backyard...so I agreed. The topic? "Preparing Legal Descriptions"...simple enough. I've written one or two. My buddy even included a fairly basic PowerPoint presentation he's used before.
As the date draws near I decided to start putting stuff together to dazzle and confuse my audience. Wait a minute, I don't even know who makes up this audience. I checked into it...
This is a get together of the South Central Arc Users Group. And their mission statement from their website:
"Since 1990, the South Central Arc User Group (SCAUG) has provided resources and tools for Geographic Information Systems (GIS) users and professionals in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana and Mississippi. If your organization is currently using or is planning to implement GIS in the future you can benefit from becoming a member of SCAUG. Membership connects you to a community of knowledgeable professionals in a growing industry. SCAUG has over a 1000 active members and continues to grow."
wow..
As touchy as most surveyors are about boundaries and deed lines being misrepresented in GIS databases, I'm wondering what sort of audience to which I will be speaking. I'm also wondering why these folks might feel the need to "prepare" a legal description (eek!).
I'm kind of thinking this is a golden opportunity to attempt an explanation of why a deed that is written beginning 660' west of a corner may not actually begin 660' west of that corner....
What I thought was going to be a cut-and-dried four hour session might turn into an education for some of these folks and myself. I hope I'm able to bring some understanding to the table and help us all out in an emulsifying way to bridge the gap between GIS and the world down here on the ground.
And I've got a mere four hours to succeed....sheeesh...
You may well be accused of aiding and abetting non qualified surveying.
Paul in PA
Paul in PA, post: 336562, member: 236 wrote: You may well be accused of aiding and abetting non qualified surveying.
Paul in PA
Somebody has to do it, Paul. It might as well be someone as cockeyed and demented as myself to "break the ice". I usually look forward to these...this one...maybe not so much. 😉
Interesting crowd. They need to understand the full impact of a legal description. It's much more than a convenient string of words.
Just an update: Received an email this A.M. wanting to know if it was OK to increase the number of participants in the workshop. Apparently there has been a flood of attendees wanting to be a part of the "legal description" portion of the conference. I guess that's a good thing. I sure hate talking to a room full of folks that just stare at the podium.
We'll see how this turns out. They will either enjoy it...or I'll be tarred and feathered and drug out of town on a rail. :whistle:
I smell a fish here, you are being set up for a "roast".
To get their attention right off the bat, I would state that ÛÏGIS ainÛªt surveying and if any of you surveyor wannabeÛªs think it is, leave now.Û
Then duck behind the podiumÛ?. 😉
Good luck yer gonna need it!
The GIS people I have the pleasure of working with from time to time are all really nice people simply trying to do a good job. However, none of them have been trained on the subjects that are critical to land surveying. They have been trained on how to use specific versions of software to more simply create lovely sketches of what is better than nothing at depicting the real world. Their best guess at locating the center of an intersection is number one on the list of skills required. Everything else is based off of offsets from these points. Sometimes they will attempt to recreate entire subdivisions and then drop them into what appears to be the best fit to get as many streets as possible to match the plat on record. Some will somewhat master the software that allows them to draw out what the land surveyor put on the plat. They may be thinking in little circles-feet-inches instead of degrees-minutes-seconds, but if the final sketch appears to match the surveyor's plat it really doesn't matter.
Many GIS people have nothing to do with the base maps. They are only concerned with installing data points at approximate locations. For example, the location of a fire hydrant does not need to be to the nearest centimeter, but it needs to be within a few feet of it's true location. What is more important to the GIS worker is that the block of information tied to that point is correct. The data might include: physical dimensions of the hydrant, manufacturer, year of manufacture, date of installation, date of last functionality test, etc. The end user is relying on that data to be correct much more than relying on whether or not it is at a certain latitude and longitude expressed to ten digits following the decimal.
paden cash, post: 336558, member: 20 wrote: "Preparing Legal Descriptions"...simple enough.
The first thing I would do is change the name of the presentation to "Why You Should NOT Be Preparing Legal Descriptions"
I'd probably then focus on the many pitfalls of believing that the bearings and distances in the descriptions definitively control the locations of the boundaries on the ground. Your "660 ft." example is a great place to start. Good luck!
Yup. The old 1320 plus 1320 must be a half mile. Or 660 plus 660 plus 660 plus 660 must be a half mile. Or the subdivision plat from 1901 showing the north half of the northeast quarter of the section to have lots, blocks, streets and alleys that add up to a perfect 1320 one way and 2640 the other.
Don't strip the "bounds" off a metes & bounds description. They are the important part, the bearings and distances are the extraneous part of the description...not the other way around.
Don't turn a lot & block legal description into a m&b. That ruins the whole thing and strips away the original intent.
A land surveyor's primary legal skill is the ability to take a description and legally place it on the ground, and to take a location on the ground and put it on paper. It's what we do. Always consult a land surveyor for your descriptions.
there. my 2å¢ (or 2-hundredths) worth.
Hmm you might discuss database stucture to automate legal writing using python scripting. Besides the rare few of us that are registered that use arc/info on a daily basis they might be more interested on how to plot a legal.
It is good education practice to explain how something is done but you have a duty to also explain why just any fool is not qualified to do it.
You have an opportunity to introduce these good folks to things they rarely get a glimpse of. You can use it to widen the divide or to exchange information. I have faith you will choose the latter....
makerofmaps, post: 336646, member: 9079 wrote: Hmm you might discuss database stucture to automate legal writing using python scripting. Besides the rare few of us that are registered that use arc/info on a daily basis they might be more interested on how to plot a legal.
That's where I'm going to take everyone initially. I am also going to chat with everyone before we get kicked-off an try to get a feel for what they are expecting to pick up from the session.
The one drawback to this whole affair is my lack of experience with arc/info. One of my clients (a utility company) relies heavily on their arc gis. We provide them shape files of the RWs we prepare with geodetic locations. One thing I have started in the last few years is also including the closest land corner in each shape file. My desire was that at least all of the shapes within a specific section (or qtr.) would get entered in a predictable place. That in itself seems to have lowered the number of calls from the gis dept. Although from the print outs I see, there are still a lot of my "shapes" that are really on property lines not showing up on the actual property line. That's just one detail with a work in progress. That one client serves almost 1000 sq. miles and getting every plat and parcel "glued in" at an accurate location would be a monumental task. As I said, a work in progress.
I will learn as much as anyone at this one.
For those interested, here's the description of the course:
[INDENT=1]Legal Descriptions come in all shapes and sizes, some good, some not so good. This session will discuss the many types of legal descriptions such as Public Land Survey System (Rectangular System), Metes and Bounds descriptions, Lot and Block Descriptions and various combinations of each of these.
Other topics will include:
Û¢ Aliquot Descriptions
Û¢ How to ÛÏtrackÛ a description so it can be plotted
Û¢ Controlling elements of a description
Û¢ Basis of Bearings[/INDENT]
So I'd definitely say the workshop title is misleading.
As [USER=9079]@makerofmaps[/USER] suggested, many attendees are probably most interested in how to convert a legal description into a GIS polygon.
paden cash, post: 336558, member: 20 wrote: A few weeks ago I readily agreed to cover for a friend at an upcoming speaking engagement. It is probably not a secret to anyone that ol' Paden will talk anywhere there is someone who will listen! My buddy has been picked for Federal Jury Duty and the probability of him "getting out of it" are slim to none. It's a short 4 hour seminar and it's in my backyard...so I agreed. The topic? "Preparing Legal Descriptions"...simple enough. I've written one or two. My buddy even included a fairly basic PowerPoint presentation he's used before.
As the date draws near I decided to start putting stuff together to dazzle and confuse my audience. Wait a minute, I don't even know who makes up this audience. I checked into it...
This is a get together of the South Central Arc Users Group. And their mission statement from their website:
"Since 1990, the South Central Arc User Group (SCAUG) has provided resources and tools for Geographic Information Systems (GIS) users and professionals in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana and Mississippi. If your organization is currently using or is planning to implement GIS in the future you can benefit from becoming a member of SCAUG. Membership connects you to a community of knowledgeable professionals in a growing industry. SCAUG has over a 1000 active members and continues to grow."
wow..
As touchy as most surveyors are about boundaries and deed lines being misrepresented in GIS databases, I'm wondering what sort of audience to which I will be speaking. I'm also wondering why these folks might feel the need to "prepare" a legal description (eek!).
I'm kind of thinking this is a golden opportunity to attempt an explanation of why a deed that is written beginning 660' west of a corner may not actually begin 660' west of that corner....
What I thought was going to be a cut-and-dried four hour session might turn into an education for some of these folks and myself. I hope I'm able to bring some understanding to the table and help us all out in an emulsifying way to bridge the gap between GIS and the world down here on the ground.
And I've got a mere four hours to succeed....sheeesh...
I believe your starting point is given in the quote "Since 1990, the South Central Arc User Group (SCAUG) has provided resources and tools for Geographic Information Systems (GIS) users and professionals in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana and Mississippi." Start with a quick outline of the Professional Surveyor license requirements (education, internship/experience and testing) in these state. A short table with headings (education, internship/experience and testing) and list of the states at left should do. Also ask the SCAUG contact you have if any adjoining states attend these seminars. Those states may be added to the list. Next chart should address minimum requirements for a professional surveyor to prepare a description in each state. Keeping the list simple, field survey required (yes/no), deeds and records search requirements (adjoining deeds, highway records, prior surveys, etc.), physical measurements to original survey corners. I would presume some of these states include areas where CFEDs certification is required. If so make some limited summary of additional requirements.
Once you have outlined the minimum work a surveyor is required to do by law then outline the time, days and/or hours, required for research, measurement and analysis of a few recent projects of various sizes. Emphasize that once this is all completed you can start to determine if a new description is required. Also remind them that M&B description of lots in a recorded subdivision is frowned upon and introduces confusion. Once you determine a description is required address whether each state is a recording state. If any of them are make a quick review of the recording requirements, such as plat, description, written report and public agency/agencies that review.
Now pause, take a deep breath, sigh and say you are now ready to begin your presentation on how to prepare a written description. At this point everyone should be ready for the first 10 minute break and a few aspirin to ease the headaches.
What comes to mind, is a PP presentation, that has overlays. A pile of sequential conveyances. That contain overlaps, and gaps.
Come off as an innocent land surveyor, merely providing a description (no pun intended) of what we do every day. Pick a good one. Start with a whole 40, and maybe a goofy fence corner. Then, a PILE of 25 deeds, as things happen. Have EACH deed dated, so that you can assemble it. And, provide a whole survey of the Section. Then, the perimeter of the 40. Then, maybe the E-1/2 of it. Then the West 20 acres of it. All of this with overlays. different colors. As each deed is added, the new deed is presented as a graphic overlay.
Start out with "This is what we surveyors do, when asked to survey "Deed Book 488, Page 299" Cherokee County Public Records."
Which deed, was bought at a tax sale. Just a simple little ole survey. So that they can understand how what was once written as 210x210 now is 198' x 205' and has many kinks on on side, due to senior tile. The whole presentation should leave a CLEAR legal understanding of what a survey based description is, and what it is not.
My 2 cents.
N
Nate The Surveyor, post: 336670, member: 291 wrote: What comes to mind, is a PP presentation, that has overlays. A pile of sequential conveyances. That contain overlaps, and gaps.
{SNIP}
Start out with "This is what we surveyors do, when asked to survey "Deed Book 488, Page 299" Cherokee County Public Records."
Which deed, was bought at a tax sale. Just a simple little ole survey. So that they can understand how what was once written as 210x210 now is 198' x 205' and has many kinks on on side, due to senior tile. The whole presentation should leave a CLEAR legal understanding of what a survey based description is, and what it is not.My 2 cents.
N
As I mentioned above concentrate on the surveying requirements in the local states. Also think about the trends in surveying practice. Ohio has been the testing ground for the PLSS as well as in development of both GPS and LIS/GIS systems. As mentioned in previous posts the Ohio Board of Registration issued an Opinion 2009-05-27 that includes:
[INDENT]Based on ORC 4733.01, it is the BoardÛªs opinion that only a registered professional surveyor can correctly determine if the description for a parcel of land accurately describes that parcel of land, its location on the earthÛªs surface, and its relationship to adjoining lands. Accordingly, the preparation of a metes and bounds legal description is clearly the practice of surveying.
[/INDENT]
In Ohio preparation of a description may constitute the unlicensed practice of surveying. There is an instance, over 30 years ago, where a county tax plat clerk pleaded no contest to charges of surveying without a license for "correcting" mathematically incorrect descriptions.
Another thing. Explain why a 1/4 mile, is not 1320' And, go through some details of how the use of ASSUMED 2640's etc and surveyed dimensions ALWAYS cause problems. IF that was all you did, it would be a service to them.
N
One use for GIS is tax maps. One task of GIS operators is going from a legal description to polygons on a tax map. A big pitfall is fair and consistent treatment of road easements. It isn't fair to tax guy A on his land area to the center line of the road (cuz that's how the deed describes it) and tax the guy B down the street for the land area to the edge of the public road easement (cuz that's how guy B's lawyer wrote the deed). Perhaps you could touch on how to tell the difference when reading a legal description, and what to do if the deed is unclear.
