The huge expense of Civil 3D

Carlson Survey will do everything that a small surveying company needs; you're not going to use 10% of Civil 3D.

I am a solo operator, and I use Carlson 2008 Standalone, with embedded AutoCad. I barely scratch the surface of what this software is capable of.

The only issue I have had over the years has been when others send me drawings that were created using Civil 3D. I believe that there are workarounds for that, thanks to this forum.

I want to upgrade to 2014, but the other solo surveyor I work with on a regular basis is using an older version of software, and we have compatability issues now as it is. I have not had any issues with my design clients being able to use my drawings in their design, so I have not really pursued the upgrade option yet. I probably will next year if the budget allows. My computers (desktop and laptop) are 6 and 5 years old, and I don't want them to just die unexpectedly.

I have heard that some are. I have even read here about people loading Carlson Survey on top of Civil 3D. Must be nice to have that kind of money.
I stayed with LDD for YEARS so I could spoil our parent company by sending them the complete project file. Then, one day, I noticed that none of the other contractors were doing that. They were getting just the dwg files, and, in some cases, dgn's from subcontractors and using them with minimal problems.
Couldn't see spending almost 300% per seat to stay with AutoDesk.Made the switch to Carlson Survey and have not had one compatibility complaint with what I send to any client.
You want to spend that kind of money because it is what you are used too, that's fine with me. I just don't like whizzing away money needlessly. My wife and kids do that for me already. :-X

I like to keep things in perspective. How much does it cost to set up a new survey truck? How much does it cost to rent or buy an office building? How much for a complete GPS/Robotic setup? How much does a party chief pull down per year?

Compared with those things, AutoCAD Civil 3D is cheap. What is NOT cheap is the HUGE expense of time required to learn the program.

Dave

I totally understand about C3D being overkill. We are a small surveying and engineering company that does almost all surveying at the moment. We do some engineering projects along the way. But it is still way more software than we would ever use.

I just can't get how Autodesk can do this.

I tried to switch to Carlson some years ago and it was difficult. Maybe when the time comes to shell out $7000 (or whatever C3D costs) I will be willing to give it another shot.

> I like to keep things in perspective. How much does it cost to set up a new survey truck? How much does it cost to rent or buy an office building? How much for a complete GPS/Robotic setup? How much does a party chief pull down per year?
>
> Compared with those things, AutoCAD Civil 3D is cheap. What is NOT cheap is the HUGE expense of time required to learn the program.
>
> Dave

:good: Double the price of seat by adding the training costs.

"Carlson Survey will do everything that a small surveying company needs; you're not going to use 10% of Civil 3D."

For me it's closer to 90%...

We are switching back over to Civil 3D from Carlson because some of our bigger clients are requesting C3D data. It also plays a bit nicer with the more advanced Leica data and GIS stuff.

Our training is being paid for in full by a state grant. The grant is also paying for a full seat of the C3D because we are hiring another person to use it. There are ton's of small business grants out there that will cover this type of stuff.

Tom

> We are switching back over to Civil 3D from Carlson because some of our bigger clients are requesting C3D data. It also plays a bit nicer with the more advanced Leica data and GIS stuff.
>
> Our training is being paid for in full by a state grant. The grant is also paying for a full seat of the C3D because we are hiring another person to use it. There are ton's of small business grants out there that will cover this type of stuff.
>
> Tom

Hey Tom,
I'd be interested in learning more about this grant. Shoot me an email through this site.

Ralph

Interesting comments

I'm sure there are a number of surveyors out there like myself that CAN remember the industry before AutoCad (and computers for that matter) came along.

I, for one, do not see the sense of building a business model that has holes below the water line. Software "subscription" to me is like a supplier telling me if I am making money with their product, they want some of it. Forever. We purchase vehicles. We purchase equipment. We purchase hardware. There is a finite amount that can be predicted and satisfied when adding these items to inventory.

How many people would howl like their nuts were in a vise if you never really bought your equipment? You just keep sending the manufacturer thousands of dollars every year. What if we really couldn't buy vehicles, just lease? I think the software companies have just legally maneuvered their product market efficiently enough to become barnacles on the industry's cash flow.

AutoCad (C3D) is probably a good product, but it is not a necessity. There are plenty of alternatives. Look around and save yourself some money. Make good business decisions every chance you get. It shows up on the 1120.

Any company must use what it can afford.

When the client insists upon certain software for their continued business, they must understand that they are paying for everything.

The client has the option to supply you with a suite of their software if they are so specific.

One of the earliest improvements I can remember causing an almost overnight increase in fees was the introduction of the TS.

Today we have moved into a near complete digital world and the biggest problem is that of proprietary rights among the major retailers who each appear to have a good product and are all failing because they cannot agree upon a standard platform for everyone to share their product.

0.02

> The client has the option to supply you with a suite of their software if they are so specific.

Most of the clients with which I'm familiar would rephrase this to read "the client has the option to engage another surveyor if they are so specific."

I think JMF means, you'll use less than 10% -- in other words, you both agree.

Right, I guess I could have been clearer; I doubt if most small survey companies even use 10% of what Civil 3D can do.

[sarcasm]thats awesome, my tax dollars being spent on buying and training people to use programs that I dont want and can't afford...What a country![/sarcasm]:good:

> [sarcasm]thats awesome, my tax dollars being spent on buying and training people to use programs that I dont want and can't afford...What a country![/sarcasm]:good:

Are you paying NY taxes?
If not, how is it your tax money?

I agree C3D is expensive and a PITA to learn. I spent about six months teaching myself to run it. Once you figure out how to run it it's cake (I never used LDD, so I don't know how "great" it was).

Now that I can run it, I use it as a marketing tool. A lot of engineers I have met have complained about surveyors sending them files that don't work well with C3D. I guess I will fill this niche while everyone else catches up!

> I agree C3D is expensive and a PITA to learn. I spent about six months teaching myself to run it. Once you figure out how to run it it's cake (I never used LDD, so I don't know how "great" it was).
>
> Now that I can run it, I use it as a marketing tool. A lot of engineers I have met have complained about surveyors sending them files that don't work well with C3D. I guess I will fill this niche while everyone else catches up!

:good: :good:

> I agree C3D is expensive and a PITA to learn. I spent about six months teaching myself to run it. Once you figure out how to run it it's cake (I never used LDD, so I don't know how "great" it was).
>
> Now that I can run it, I use it as a marketing tool. A lot of engineers I have met have complained about surveyors sending them files that don't work well with C3D. I guess I will fill this niche while everyone else catches up!

So standard CAD files supplemented with LandXML data doesn't work for most engineers? That's what I do. Really haven't heard any complaints (not to say they don't have any).

I remember when Civil3D came out and we all got training on it at the company that I worked at. I could tell right away that this was not a product geared to the surveying profession. It was an all engineering product. I remember one of my big issues was that there was no separate coordinate file. It was all embedded in the CAD file. So I guess you would have to output a separate coordinate file that would work in the data collector. Also, I'm not sure if it is still that way, but you could just move coordinates around willy-nilly with a simple AutoCAD Move command. That didn't seem very secure to me for data integrity. Not to long after that we transitioned over to Carlson Survey.