David Livingstone, post: 454256, member: 431 wrote: Its a good book and has a lot of good case law in it.
You can't go wrong; with good case law...
David Livingstone, post: 454256, member: 431 wrote: I've heard Jeff Lucas also say the manual doesn't apply once the land goes to private ownership. In Illinois there is not a lot of Federal land, so his point is probably valid. I'm kind of filling in my view of what Lucas said, but I think his point if that people hold the manual likes its some kind of bible and stop using common sense. Jeff Lucas actually wrote a book for the Illinois Professional Land Surveyors Association called Illinois Boundary Law. I'm glad they got him to write it instead of someone that leaned heavy on the theoritcal side of surveying. Its a good book and has a lot of good case law in it.
I somewhat agree with Lucas on that statement (but you do need the manual). In my opinion, once a property goes to private domain, you have a lot more rules and law to follow than when you are the first surveyor to create a property line. Not unlike creating a subdivision, and setting the interior corners at the mathematical location of your subdivision by the "pure" math.
[USER=94]@Dave Karoly[/USER] If you haven't heard Lucas speak he is great to watch. He's like an animated Baptist preacher shouting and hollering his survey philosophy. He definitely stirs the pot.
David Livingstone, post: 454256, member: 431 wrote: I've heard Jeff Lucas also say the manual doesn't apply once the land goes to private ownership. In Illinois there is not a lot of Federal land, so his point is probably valid. I'm kind of filling in my view of what Lucas said, but I think his point if that people hold the manual likes its some kind of bible and stop using common sense. Jeff Lucas actually wrote a book for the Illinois Professional Land Surveyors Association called Illinois Boundary Law. I'm glad they got him to write it instead of someone that leaned heavy on the theoritcal side of surveying. Its a good book and has a lot of good case law in it.
To flesh out the argument a bit more, here the manual is included in the regulations as the main source to use for sectional surveying. He wanted it rejected for that, although it was more of a shock statement I think.
However, it's difficult to set a section, 1/4 or even a 1/16th corner that doesn't have some imperial entanglements. Some counties that are mostly fee surface have very little land that doesn't have fed minerals under the land.
Anyway, it's also his opinion that the BLM doesn't always follow the manual and holds rigid ideas about interior lines, I can't disagree with him there.
Tom Adams, post: 454260, member: 7285 wrote: He's like an animated Baptist preacher shouting and hollering his survey philosophy.
Dang Tom,
Ya sound like you've been to a down home ASPS/DDSM fish fry and Surveyor's conflab :sun::clink:
I realize that most are not talking about Texas, as I am.
We do follow some very simple and learned rules of evidence and mentioning them in any other context than they were written is stirring the pot.
Like professor said in class, "there is a manual for most states to follow, however, in Texas we adopt different rules and those will be discussed here".
Still, we have surveyors that have trouble placing a deeded 5ac tract of land into a 4.92?ñac reminder slot all the time.
The statement of tossing the Manual is as stupid as those about it being some magic cookbook. In most cases those on both extremes have never read it, much less with understanding.
The plain and simple truth is you better know if you are in a PLSS State, and you better know a lot beyond it if you plan on Surveying for a living.
David Livingstone, post: 454256, member: 431 wrote: I've heard Jeff Lucas also say the manual doesn't apply once the land goes to private ownership.
Not if your state law contains a passage like this (Oregon):
ORS 209.070 Duties in respect to surveys. The county surveyor of each county shall:
(4) Make all surveys of legal subdivisions with reference to the current United States Manual of Surveying Instructions.
I can't remember exactly why, because Illinois is similar, but Lucas is saying even though saying the Manual is "adopted", that doesn't mean you have to follow it word for word. I think its becasue there is some wording in the manual that once land is in private hands................ Sorry, thats all I recall.
In one of my Lucas classes, it was in a large ball room with the hanging dividers and sound carried through the walls a little bit. Lucas got really into the discussion and was pretty loud, and the class next door in unision said "BE QUIET". It was prettty funny because the Illinois conference gets pretty large, sometimes over a 1000 people, and both classes were pretty large.
I think a big point of Lucas talk is about retracing earlier surveys (which is what most of us do when conducting a survey even if you're creating a new parcel, you are relying on already-established boundaries). It has to do with a 1/16th section being broke down different than the instructions in the Manual (or a C1/4 being set). Do you retrace the original section breakdown, or do you set new corners to the prescribed method outlined in the Manual.
He a huge believer in not disrupting the long-standing boundaries.
Tom Adams, post: 454363, member: 7285 wrote: I think a big point of Lucas talk is about retracing earlier surveys (which is what most of us do when conducting a survey even if you're creating a new parcel, you are relying on already-established boundaries). It has to do with a 1/16th section being broke down different than the instructions in the Manual (or a C1/4 being set). Do you retrace the original section breakdown, or do you set new corners to the prescribed method outlined in the Manual.
He a huge believer in not disrupting the long-standing boundaries.
Where the land has already been divided and occupied for decades or more, how do you set NEW corners and call it a retracement??
LRDay, post: 454478, member: 571 wrote: Where the land has already been divided and occupied for decades or more, how do you set NEW corners and call it a retracement??
Easy, you are "retracing" the imaginary lines on the Plat 😉
