Does any one have data sheets between about 1998 to 2004 for AL? I know they use to come on CD-ROM. I'm trying to find old data sheets I remember looking at around 2002 on the NGS Explorer (which used to launch in a new pop-up window). For some reason they removed many of the older USGS benchmark datasheets from the Explorer starting around 2006 to 2008 I would estimate. I would love it if someone has some archived. I'm fascinated how the old surveyors went from the coast to hundreds of miles inland using basically just levels the entire way to create NGVD29 during the 1920s and 30s. I recently recovered a USGS benchmark from 1935 that is perfectly intact but like I said, many of these older ones were taken off years ago including this one. Any help would be appreciated.
I have not heard that they removed any old datasheets. In general, USGS leveling data (benchmark descriptions, adjusted NGVD29 elevations) were never scanned or entered into the NGS IDB (NSRS). The only USGS benchmarks that are in the NSRS are ones that NGS leveled through in their runs.
I was just searching and reading some old posts and found a interesting one by "https://surveyorconnect.com/community/members/base9geodesy.7189/&apos ;">base9geodesy":
"Before I retired from NGS we had a near complete collection of the old USGS horizontal and vertical control data and it was easy to get to and respond to requests. Since then all of that data has been boxed up and "archived" to an area where virtually no one knows how to find anything."
I for sure know at least one was removed because I reported it as destroyed back sometime around 2002 on the NGS site (which could be understood), I think several others were taken off at the same time even if never destroyed. That might be around the time "https://surveyorconnect.com/community/members/base9geodesy.7189/&apos ;">base9geodesy" was talking about when all of that data was boxed up and "archived".
http://www.geocaching.com/mark&apos ;">www.geocaching.com/mark
They use a snapshot of the NGS data base from about 2001 and can display those data sheets.
I agree that the majority of USGS marks never were in the NGS data base for the NSRS.
I don't think NGS ever takes a mark out of their data base unless it was shown to have been in error. Disks reported destroyed with sufficient evidence (not just NF) are omitted from some searches but can still be accessed in some manner.
The one I looked up on the NGS Explorer and I reported as destroyed is not in the database anymore, I've searched on that geocaching site also and it was not on there either. I know geocaching site database is from 2000 per their website. So maybe I need 1998 or 1999 data sheets to find this one or others. One thing I know for certain, I would not have been able to report the destroyed one if it was not in the NGS Explorer in the late 1990s or early 2000s because I know I had to have the PID back then when I did report it destroyed.
I have the NGS CD-ROM disks for the Western US dating back to ~1993, but nothing in the Southern or Eastern States.
I'm sure that some old fart around your area probably has a set in his closet.
😉
Loyal
Loyal, post: 453044, member: 228 wrote: I have the NGS CD-ROM disks for the Western US dating back to ~1993
I hope you've transfered those to other media. I've had more than a few CD-R disks from that era go bad. I no longer trust optical media for archival storage.
Jim Frame, post: 453048, member: 10 wrote: I hope you've transfered those to other media. I've had more than a few CD-R disks from that era go bad. I no longer trust optical media for archival storage.
Probably a good idea Jim.
I dug one of the "oldest" ones out just last week to get the ACTUAL Data Sheet(s) used to control an old project.
It worked fine, but who knows next time I need one.
Loyal
I have a big blue book that is full of datasheets and level runs compiled for my region. Some of the valid bench marks on those sheets will not show up in a datasheet search through the NGS site. I tied into one of them two weeks ago, although it was used in a level run in the 1960's it and some other ones in that run do not show up. Like Loyal says ask around, maybe someone has those hard copy records or some scanned into a digital format.
Be aware that the old sheets will not have modern data on them, for a bench mark it should have data in NGVD27 and will need to be converted.
NGVD29
BM1002, post: 453042, member: 12198 wrote: The one I looked up on the NGS Explorer and I reported as destroyed is not in the database anymore
What was the PID?
Bill93, post: 453112, member: 87 wrote: NGVD29
yep 29
I have January 1994 Southeast set but I couldn't get the software to run, even using compatibility mode to run as win95. I'm pushed for time today or I'd just zip up the .dat files (text) and arrange for you to get them. If you post the PID, I can see if I can find it quickly.
mkennedy, post: 453123, member: 7183 wrote: I have January 1994 Southeast set but I couldn't get the software to run, even using compatibility mode to run as win95. I'm pushed for time today or I'd just zip up the .dat files (text) and arrange for you to get them. If you post the PID, I can see if I can find it quickly.
If you have the NGS CD, AFAIK, those are all ASCII, just open the individual county you are interested in and search by name in any text editor. There should be a county index to cross reference the counties to the file name, also just ASCII text.
SHG
Shelby H. Griggs PLS, post: 453147, member: 335 wrote: If you have the NGS CD, AFAIK, those are all ASCII, just open the individual county you are interested in and search by name in any text editor. There should be a county index to cross reference the counties to the file name, also just ASCII text.
SHG
Shelby,
That's how I access these old NGS CDs as well. I don't even bother dinking with the old software, it's too easy to just open the ASCII files in NOTEPAD and search as you suggest.
Loyal
John Hamilton and Bill93 are both correct about USGS vertical control in the NGS database. USGS declined to automate their data and submit it for inclusion in the NSRS so the only USGS points in the DB are those that USC&GS/NGS or others resurveyed and automated later - they amount to a very small percentage of the marks ever set by USGS for either horizontal or vertical control. Their data will likely forever remain in just paper form. They don't have the resources to scan everything and neither does NGS.
They are also both correct that it is exceedingly rare that NGS actually removes a station from the database. If you previously had a datasheet and now nothing shows up it is most likely that someone has reported the mark destroyed to NGS and they have hidden the datasheet. There is a way around this. If you know the PID you can use the "Include Destroyed Marks" option. This should return the datasheet. This is only provided on the Datasheets by PID retrieval page. Most users have never noticed it. If a mark was on the old CDs then it's in the DB. We did remove several thousand marks from the old paper publications of both NAD 27 and NGVD 29 as we were creating the new datums and the database back in the late 70s and 80s. Many stations for which the horizontal position or height could not be fully validated at a national accuracy level (1st- 2nd- 3rd-Order) by actual observations were dropped from the adjustments. At least on the horizontal side (NAD 27 to NAD 83) the overwhelming majority of those stations were older intersection stations (church spires, water tanks etc.)
I don't remember the PID but I did recently search through a hundred or so of similar older bench mark PID's nearby and used the "Include Destroyed Marks" hoping it might show up in the list but could not find it. One time I read that NGS does not necessarily retain all Destroyed markers under "Include Destroyed Marks", so I was assuming that some are permanently hidden or taken off from the database. The one I remember must have been resurveyed and automated later during the 1990s into the data sheets and then taken off sometime around 2006 after being reported destroyed.
I'll send you a conversation https://surveyorconnect.com/community/members/mkennedy.7183/&apos ;">mkennedy with my email if you get to send any .dat files or datasheets. Thank you.
County file sent! A quick search didn't see the point you're looking for...
Thanks very much. The file worked fine on DSWIN and I did not see it either. I felt like I could have sworn remember seeing it on the classic NGSmap (which was similar to the modern NGS Data Explorer) around 2001 to 2003. So either seeing this particular one on NGSmap was made up in my head over the years, it was added later to the database around 2001 to 2003, or maybe they just had old designation names added to the map. But anyway, it's still nice having archives of old survey data to see how things have changed.