Number of people sitting for PS Exam

It's like that in every state. There are no folks getting into surveying. And just think, many boards are pushing to make it harder to sit for that exam.

Rant off.

Part of the problem is the elitism prevalent within the current list of licensed surveyors that discourages those with under 40 years of experience and 250 hours of college credit from applying for the exam in the first place. Another part of the problem is the stranglehold said elitists hold over keeping wages low for those who work for them. We must back off on licensing requirements or the profession will be killed off by its own stupidity. When the only surveying firms left are owned by Amazon and WalMart, the elitists will have won.

Turk-LES, post: 367749, member: 11428 wrote: I never expected to be the only one sitting for the national exam...

What you are seeing may be a consequence of the crash of '2008. There just weren't a lot of people entering the profession at that time, and 8 years later it translates into not many eligible to take the PS test. Maybe. Check back in a few years.

Personally a smaller number of PLSs doesn't concern me but a shortage of competent technicians does.

Mark Mayer, post: 367752, member: 424 wrote: What you are seeing may be a consequence of the crash of '2008. There just weren't a lot of people entering the profession at that time, and 8 years later it translates into not many eligible to take the PS test. Maybe. Check back in a few years.

Personally a smaller number of PLSs doesn't concern me but a shortage of competent technicians does.

Absolutely.

In this area, there is no shortage of surveyors. In fact, I'm 41, and roughly half the surveyors within an hour of here are younger than me.

But there is certainly a shortage of technicians.

We have created a perfect storm against our own Profession. One man crews have all but eliminated mentoring. The 4 year degree (minus any financial reward) is making Surveying less attractive by the day. Add the refusal of most to spend one thin dime policing ourselves and this is what you get. Why would anyone head down this road?
For me, I love what I do. If we don't reverse some of the above, nobody will get the chance to find that out...

Personally, if I had to take 4 years of college to sit for the exam, I wouldn't waste my time on the surveyor's exam, I would go straight to the Engineers exam, more money, and then you can blame the surveyor for screwing up your project....

I don't think that lowering the standards to become a surveyor does the profession any good at all. Shall we do that for the shortage of doctors and nurses? Engineers need to be imported from other countries to fill the demand. Maybe we should lower the standards for the engineer designing the bridge you are driving your car over. As far as "surveyor elitism", what planet do you live on? It is getting harder and harder for employers in any type of business to find someone willing to work, much less qualified. I don't care if it's a carpenter or a surveyor. Maybe the problem is our society's shift to accepting unemployment as a career choice and making it easier for people to not work! Lowering the bar for any profession is not the answer to filling vacancies.

I took the exam in Mississippi on Friday and there were only 3 for the federal. There were 17 for the state portion, but all but the 3 from the federal exam were from out of state.

In PA you are eligible to sit for the FS exam if you have a two year survey degree. It is the most bang for your buck if you look at earnings/cost. Not to discredit a 4 year degree in survey, but there is no value for the additional two years on the open market. Its the same for a MS degree in Civil. I know many people who have their MS, but it didn't get them anything (other than additional student loans.)

Don't get me wrong, there is value added in the additional education. But from a practical perspective, there is no additional amount of income for the effort. Not to say there aren't a few jobs out there that may require a 4 year survey degree.

With all of that said, I know quite a few people who have two year degrees and sat/failed the FS exam. They just gave up after one time. I know many who have done the same for the FE. The issue is it seems obtaining the PLS is less attractive than obtaining the PE.

Again, just some random thoughts.

PS, I love this forum. Its one of the things I admire most about the survey profession vs the civil. There is no camaraderie in the civil side.

Turk

Jevad11, post: 367759, member: 1908 wrote: I don't think that lowering the standards to become a surveyor does the profession any good at all. Shall we do that for the shortage of doctors and nurses? Engineers need to be imported from other countries to fill the demand. Maybe we should lower the standards for the engineer designing the bridge you are driving your car over. As far as "surveyor elitism", what planet do you live on? It is getting harder and harder for employers in any type of business to find someone willing to work, much less qualified. I don't care if it's a carpenter or a surveyor. Maybe the problem is our society's shift to accepting unemployment as a career choice and making it easier for people to not work! Lowering the bar for any profession is not the answer to filling vacancies.

I concur that 'lowering the standard' isn't an answer. My idea is not to reduce quality but to re-open alternate paths.
As it stands, most States do not allow anyone to sit for a first license without a 4 year degree. That cuts out those who started in the military or worked through the ranks for 20 years and grabbed a few survey courses along the way (like me). While I am not Survey Superman, I am an accomplished Professional. It's hard for me disallow others the opportunity afforded me. That would be 'elitism '...

This is a very sore subject for me personally.
In my late 40's I decided to make a change in my life and become a surveyor, for several reasons. Some of these reasons were, respect for the profession, the ability to be able to continue to work in the profession for as long as my health holds out, good pay available, and the chance to be a benefit to my community. I went back to school and earned my two year degree, got a job with a well respected Engineering and Surveying firm in Hot Springs, AR, and passed my Survey Intern exam on the first shot.
Then life hit me square in the seat of the pants. My wife of 30 years decided to go a different route, and long story short, I wound up single for a while, then reconnected with a girl I knew in high school who was recently divorced as well. We dated long distance for a while, then I picked up and moved to Alabama and married her. Her job required that she be in Alabama, and heck, I like it there, so it didn't seem like a big deal. BUT, Alabama has a four year degree requirement, and then once I get that, my experience starts all over. I'm guessing that there is a great chance that I will not be getting licensed in Alabama, because I simply do not want to incur more student loan debt and then have to wait six more years to get my Alabama license. I love surveying and I want to be licensed, but at my age (52 this year) it is financially silly for me to subject myself to eight more years of education and experience along with the debt. I can go back to building cabinetry and furniture and make as much or more money, but that isn't what I really wanted to do.
Now, I said all that to say this, while my case may be kind of extreme and out of the norm, the bottom line for me is this, if I have to go back to school and get more experience, it will be as an engineer so I can make enough money to make it worth my while. That, in my opinion, should be an issue for anyone at any age considering Surveying.
The other thing I'd like to say about this, is that I guarantee you that I have learned five times as much per year by working under good, experienced surveyors in both Arkansas and Alabama, than I ever would have in some classroom.
I'm going to post this because I think it is important to the profession, even though it is a little too personal. Please forgive me for that.

From this month's Florida Board of Professional Surveyors and Mappers Newsletter:

Currently there are 2,630 registered Professional Surveyors and Mappers in Florida.

• 117 of these are female
• 174 are 40 or younger
• 1,111 are 60 and older (this is a large number that will retire around the same time)
• Each year 45-50 new licenses are issued in Florida

I already have my PS and I sat for the PE on Friday. There were 4 sitting for the PS exam in Michigan. There are 5 locations to take the test. I estimate 100 people testing. I think existing surveyors need to go back to high school and promote/sell the profession.

thebionicman, post: 367765, member: 8136 wrote: I concur that 'lowering the standard' isn't an answer. My idea is not to reduce quality but to re-open alternate paths.
As it stands, most States do not allow anyone to sit for a first license without a 4 year degree. That cuts out those who started in the military or worked through the ranks for 20 years and grabbed a few survey courses along the way (like me). While I am not Survey Superman, I am an accomplished Professional. It's hard for me disallow others the opportunity afforded me. That would be 'elitism '...

To touch on what you wrote earlier, the problem is the profession is so afraid of letting in substandard practitioners that we've upped the standards to unreasonable levels. What needs to happen is the standards for entry need to be lowered, BUT at the same time the law needs to be actually enforced on those that are already practicing. If you're a jackleg surveyor, you need to lose your license.

We had 62 scheduled to sit for the PS exam in California last Friday. Believe it or not, that's a slight increase from last April so we are hoping it has bottomed out though it's half of what tested 4 years ago. I tend to think it is lag time like Mark Mayer pointed out. Do I think it will rise back to the number from the early 2000's, no. But I expect it to rise.

But I do agree with those that are stating that the ROI for a 4 year degree is not reflected in the actual practice. Great knowledge, absolutely. Translates to more compensation or better image, not reflected.

Great post, Mr. Schrock.

Many things influence the need for survey projects and, logically, the need for licensed individuals to take responsibility for performing those projects. If we focus only on the technical equipment end of the spectrum, we see that Joe Schmoe can make a minor investment in technology and believe that he no longer needs professional services from a licensed surveyor. And, truth be told, many jobs are disappearing be cause people are doing more for themselves than ever before thanks to the power than can hold in their hand. Obviously, that does not mean they know what they are doing. But, because they think they can do it themselves, they will. Or they will until they hit some roadblock that dictates a professional be employed, such as a lender demanding the independent third party with a license be utilized. If the lenders stop worrying about it, then survey projects will disappear more rapidly.

This completely ignores everything else we do as boundary surveyors, especially the title issues. It may soon become a case where the surveyor is sought out more for the title issues than the measurement issues. How many of us have the experience on that end of things compared to the number of us who traipse through the woods and backyards pushing buttons?

Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 367771, member: 6939 wrote: From this month's Florida Board of Professional Surveyors and Mappers Newsletter:

Currently there are 2,630 registered Professional Surveyors and Mappers in Florida.

• 117 of these are female
• 174 are 40 or younger
• 1,111 are 60 and older (this is a large number that will retire around the same time)
• Each year 45-50 new licenses are issued in Florida

Sounds like it will soon become financially beneficial to become a surveyor in FL. The numbers then increase.

In some states the functions that are directly related to engineering design and follow through are also covered under the professional engineering licensee, as they should be. Boundary is the one defining element of the professional land surveyor. A study of how licensing of land surveyors came about in many states will show it was based on the lack of coursework in boundary-related topics within the engineering curricula.

I always find this topic interesting and there are a lot of good points.

Does anyone have a list of the states that require a 4 year degree for licensure? Or point me in the right direction? I have seen one somewhere before but can't seem to find it anymore.