aliquot, post: 409147, member: 2486 wrote: Maybe in states that still allow licensure by experience only, but an applicants academic record should assure the board that these basic skills have been mastered. An academic high achiever should graduate high school with all the required math to be a surveyor. I agree that the tests should be harder, but I don't think math skills is where the new emphasis should be. I don't think I've run across many screw ups in modern surveys due to bad math skills. Knowing when to apply math and what math to apply to a problem is a different matter.
I disagree, many high schools have switched to multiple Calculus courses at the expense of two years of geometry and trigonometry. I do not recall any high school having a spherical geometry, i.e basic geodetics, course.
Paul in PA
Dave Karoly, post: 409128, member: 94 wrote: I don't understand your first sentence? I passed the exams. Whether I would pass or fail today is a matter of pure speculation.
I am a college dropout. That used to bother me but now it's a matter of pride especially when it bothers educated snobs like the CSUS President's wife at a function. I sat down at the President's table because I don't respect boundaries and no one told me I couldn't. She asked me about my college education to open the conversation and I told her, she dropped me instantly and turned away which I found amusing because she is threatened by me...I joined the club without meeting their artificial requirements. That isn't supposed to happen. I bet she will never drop Bill Gates like that.
I spent a lot of money to put my son through that place, no student loans, scholarships and cash.
I said "Check out your record, (to know if you actually took the NCEES exam) as you may well had failed if you had to take the NCEES exams (which is heavily education biased). BTW, what was your education. (means what was your education? self educated is a valid answer, the question was to get a sense of what background the responders bring tot the conversation).
As to your experience with the CSUS president, she may have many degrees but apparently has never been educated.
Paul in PA
Paul in PA, post: 409154, member: 236 wrote: I disagree, many high schools have switched to multiple Calculus courses at the expense of two years of geometry and trigonometry. I do not recall any high school having a spherical geometry, i.e basic geodetics, course.
Paul in PA
Geodetics is an applied science (or sub-branch of engineering) that requires math. No math above calculus is required for any undergraduate geodetics class I have seen, although linear algebra and differential equations could be useful. I haven't seen any surveying program offer a spherical geometry class.
If high schools are not covering trigonometry and geometry, that is a problem, but I assume they have just done away with those course titles and cover the material in other courses. For example it has become common to offer pre-calculus courses. This class spends 90% of its time discussing trigonometry. You can't learn trigonometry without understanding geometry, and you can't learn calculus without understanding trigonometry, the sample AP calculus exams I recently saw don't point to any drastic change in what skills are expected to be mastered.
Surveying programs do have to offer math classes because they don't attract the top academic performers. Classes like linear algebra and differential equations make for better rounded surveyors and I think they should be included, but I am very confident that I have never found a problem created by a land surveyor, who was preforming an activity that required a license, that could have been prevented with a better understanding of differential equations.
I have a minor in mathematics and some graduate level mathematics under my belt. I love math, but I think the emphasis on math in recruiting and testing surveyors is outdated. Students that love math will not find surveying satisfying, unless there is another aspect of surveying that tickles their fancy.
I think our tests and ABET accredited programs are so math based because testing for math is a lot easier than testing the ability to apply ambiguous common law principles and evidence evaluation, but if you ask me which math classes should be dropped to make room for other classes I would say none, so I am no help.
aliquot, post: 409165, member: 2486 wrote: Geodetics is an applied science (or sub-branch of engineering) that requires math. No math above calculus is required for any undergraduate geodetics class I have seen, although linear algebra and differential equations could be useful.
Statistics is typically not high school material. One can get a basic 3 credit statistics course at any community college, but for surveying here are a few things that are only covered in 4 credit statistics courses for engineers. I have been in surveying classes that begin with a few weeks of catch you up statistics. I think a 1 credit add on Statistics course would be appropriate with the 3 credit intro course as a prerequisite at many surveying programs.
Paul in PA
The passing rate sounds about right. I took both NCEES exams in 2013 and passed right away. In WI with having a bachelors degree(geography/GIS) and associates degree(surveying) I still had to have 2 years experience. Now after getting licensed in WI I was tasked with also doing IA and MN also. You would think with having 5 years experience (2 as licensed) I would be able to sit for the state exams in those states. Wrong, I was told I need more experience which would bring my total of education and experience to 12 years before I could sit for the state exams. It is no wonder there are very few people getting into surveying up here since you have to have 4 year degree for MN and at least a 2 year I believe for WI and IA when there is no 4 year degree course offered anywhere close and the 2 year place I went to closed the program due to numbers.
Paul in PA, post: 409159, member: 236 wrote: I said "Check out your record, (to know if you actually took the NCEES exam) as you may well had failed if you had to take the NCEES exams (which is heavily education biased). BTW, what was your education. (means what was your education? self educated is a valid answer, the question was to get a sense of what background the responders bring tot the conversation).
As to your experience with the CSUS president, she may have many degrees but apparently has never been educated.
Paul in PA
I didn't mean to get into a debate with you on this issue. Education is necessary. I'm not interested in taking any more exams.
I have attended and assisted in several recent FS/PS review courses in 2016. I have met over 35 students. Most of them failed the exam at least once, some 3 times, and one person failed 4 times, says they never took a calculator in the exam and was proud that they scored as high as a 50%. Many of them had four year degrees. Some are at a point in their career with 4 to 10 years experience, where they have an LS on staff that is retiring soon and they must either pass the exam, or the position will go to someone else. I see these students struggling with the basics surveying including horizontal curves, vertical curves, traversing and cogo geometry. I contribute this to today's technology. With computers, CAD and data collectors, the younger generation has never needed to hand calc a traverse closure, compute a curve or even interpolate grades to draw contours. They have never heard of a deflection angle, a short chord, or a Degree of Curve. It is difficult to teach this stuff in just three days. I try to show them how these can be applied through my to real world experiences. But they just don't use this in real world experience anymore. Heck why would they do hand calculations, other than having to know this only for the exam, there is no reason they would use it. You can't be productive doing things long hand any more. I agree with know these procedures they would be more rounded and appreciate the technology more. A better understand will help make less blunders.
In Florida there were a few photogrammetry students in the course. Florida requires and LS for this. These were among the worst prepared, as they had absolutely no boundary experience, and very limited math. They actually gave up before the end of the 3rd day of class.
I graduated from Paul Smith's College in 1991. We were required to have an HP41 calculator and were taught how to use it. We did sun shots, ran traverse with a transit and tape (3 person crews), calculating temperature, sag corrections and hand calc'd closures. We did hand drawings of topo, contours, profiles and cross sections using a plane table and alidade. Later in class we used a total station, and static GPS. I started my career working with an LS whom specialized in running tracks, and horse tracks. We set up a transit on the radius, while a two other pulled short chords along the curve for layout. We used 7 steel tapes laid out along side each lane to mark hurdles, starts marks etc. on the track. Today 25 years later I am working on the reconstruction of the same tracks. Except now I am programming the dozer, grader and excavators with GPS and 3d models. The striping and paint marks are laid out either with a robot or GPS.
leegreen, post: 409190, member: 2332 wrote: I have attended and assisted in several recent FS/PS review courses in 2016. I have met over 35 students. Most of them failed the exam at least once, some 3 times, and one person failed 4 times, says they never took a calculator in the exam and was proud that they scored as high as a 50%. Many of them had four year degrees. Some are at a point in their career with 4 to 10 years experience, where they have an LS on staff that is retiring soon and they must either pass the exam, or the position will go to someone else. I see these students struggling with the basics surveying including horizontal curves, vertical curves, traversing and cogo geometry. I contribute this to today's technology. With computers, CAD and data collectors, the younger generation has never needed to hand calc a traverse closure, compute a curve or even interpolate grades to draw contours. They have never heard of a deflection angle, a short chord, or a Degree of Curve. It is difficult to teach this stuff in just three days. I try to show them how these can be applied through my to real world experiences. But they just don't use this in real world experience anymore. Heck why would they do hand calculations, other than having to know this only for the exam, there is no reason they would use it. You can't be productive doing things long hand any more. I agree with know these procedures they would be more rounded and appreciate the technology more. A better understand will help make less blunders.
In Florida there were a few photogrammetry students in the course. Florida requires and LS for this. These were among the worst prepared, as they had absolutely no boundary experience, and very limited math. They actually gave up before the end of the 3rd day of class.
I graduated from Paul Smith's College in 1991. We were required to have an HP41 calculator and were taught how to use it. We did sun shots, ran traverse with a transit and tape (3 person crews), calculating temperature, sag corrections and hand calc'd closures. We did hand drawings of topo, contours, profiles and cross sections using a plane table and alidade. Later in class we used a total station, and static GPS. I started my career working with an LS whom specialized in running tracks, and horse tracks. We set up a transit on the radius, while a two other pulled short chords along the curve for layout. We used 7 steel tapes laid out along side each lane to mark hurdles, starts marks etc. on the track. Today 25 years later I am working on the reconstruction of the same tracks. Except now I am programming the dozer, grader and excavators with GPS and 3d models. The striping and paint marks are laid out either with a robot or GPS.
I think the exam is doing its job if its keeping someone who failed 4 times and still doesn't bring a calculator from being a surveyor.
Basic survey math is still important, although being able to do it quickly isn't. These are reasons I can think of.
1.There are always situations where you need to calculate something your software hasn't thought of. One common one I can think of is three point control for a lost section corner. Very few programs will do this for you.
2. To be able to figure out what the person before you did so you can follow in their footsteps. This is commonly required when resurveying curves.
3. To be able to explan to a non surveyor what you did. Saying "I just pressed this button" doesn't always cut it.
4. If you understand the math a major blunder will be more apoarent.
5. Sometimes you just need to calculate something on the fly and don't have access to your software.
Besides having the knowledge and schooling to be approved to take a test, it is also necessary to have spent sufficient time taking examples of past tests to know what to expect and to be aware of the time planning aspect in taking the exam.
In some settings there may be several to dozens of testers.
When I sat for the two day 4 hour 4 sessions there were nearly 400 people testing and that was about twice the population of my community.
I am glad to have had some worldly travel and been in plenty of very large crowds and plenty of practice tests behind me.
It was an awesome event to say the least.
I passed both first time. I remember feeling suprised on both results. The PS rate used to be 70% ish.
Paul in PA, post: 409169, member: 236 wrote: Statistics is typically not high school material. One can get a basic 3 credit statistics course at any community college, but for surveying here are a few things that are only covered in 4 credit statistics courses for engineers. I have been in surveying classes that begin with a few weeks of catch you up statistics. I think a 1 credit add on Statistics course would be appropriate with the 3 credit intro course as a prerequisite at many surveying programs.
Paul in PA
2 of my daughters have taken AP stats in high school. It's a fairly popular class.
Asking for a friend in missouri. Lol. If you fail your state specific, are you allowed to see your test so you can see what parts your lacking in?
thebionicman, post: 409116, member: 8136 wrote: I took the NCEES exams about 15 years ago. I passed FS with an 87, PS with an 89 and State Specific with a 96 as I recall.
My education was limited to seminary and the Dr. Elgin course on boundary law in Missouri. I did obtain a GED at Austin Peay in Kentucky if that counts.
Education comes in many forms. If you really want to learn you will.
I agree with this 100%. It doesn't take 4 years from an institution to teach surveyors how to survey.
Paul in PA, post: 409093, member: 236 wrote: Fundamentals of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 287, 46% passing = 132
Repeat Takers, 179, 25% passing = 45
Total FS passers = 177Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 46% passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182Once having passed the FS the PS passers are in range with the FS passers.
Fundamentals of Surveying Exam Failers
First time Takers, 287, 54% failing = 155
Repeat Takers, 179, 75% failing = 134Personally I believe, after three failures it should be necessary to re-apply with additional experience and additional education. I might consider the fee being somewhat lower, but the reapplication should occur.
I would have not problem if a reapplication required a board appearance, if not the full board then a special subcommittee of the surveying professionals, secretary and counsel.
Paul in PA
Some recent historical data indicates degreed candidates do perform better (especially surveying specific degree).
Oops, file too large. Lets try this...
We are the college dropout of professions.
Since we are headed back to the 19th century I don't really see the current student loan model of college finance as being sustainable.
Dave Karoly, post: 409272, member: 94 wrote: Since we are headed back to the 19th century
James Fleming, post: 409279, member: 136 wrote:
For better, for worse, for richer, for poorer that is where we are going. In the early 19th century a college education was for the wealthy, everyone else read books.
NCEES is like our Father disappointed that we never got an ABET Engineering degree. We may be uniquely positioned to embrace new, more efficient modes of education. The old dying institutions are usually the last to get the memo.
The once a year one day seminar format is not adequate by itself, though.
I took the FS in a couple years ago. The pass rates were much different. I know repeats were around 17% and I think first time was only like 38%
The test was actually very difficult. Not much math to be honest and most that was tested would have been book or classroom learned. I self taught for the exam so it wasn't easy.
The PS was a piece of cake. Much different than the FS and definitely more of what you learn by working and not the type of questions asked on the FS.
I recently took all the necessary tests (2015 & 2016). I took and passed the FS in the August 2015, which was a computer based test (CBT) and it was rather math heavy. I moved on to studying for the PS and SS, which are given the same day, if you elected to. I took both and I walked out thinking I bombed the PS but passed the SS. Totally opposite! I had passed the PS, which was heavier than anticipated with PLSS questions and failed the SS portion. I was so intent on studying the PS material that I lacked what was needed for the SS portion but I followed up with taking the SS again this past fall and passed.
I am thankful that I do not have to take the FS or PS tests again as they were rather hard. Now the VA SS test is a bear and after not passing the first time, I really knew how to approach it and was readied enough to pass on my second go-round.
Now that the "rules" have changed and you can take the FS without approval first, I think you will see the first time takers pass rate fall. This will be because of people wanting to take the test just to "see" how it will be and that the tests are being offered multiple times a quarter. Once you pass, you can then apply for your SIT designation. I believe the same will be for the PS too.
As for the education... I took the basic math in high school but never went to college for a degree. I fell into surveying and started taking a few classes related to surveying but not a formal degree path or curriculum. With my 15 years experience and limited education, I was allowed to take the tests.
"Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 60% (not 45%) passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182"
I just noticed a scrivening error.
Paul in PA