I normally do not disagree with most of what you say, but I'm going to have to call you on this one. Everyone on this forum that has passed exams towards becoming licensed has been "lucky" as you say, including yourself. Advocating for more stringent requirements after you are licensed based on the thinking that licenses are just being given away is an attitude that will not benefit your profession.
I seriously doubt that the passers were lucky, since I see a higher pass rate on the first timers and I assume the majority are college graduates. Then I see the low percentage pass rate for exam retakers and assume most of those are not completely educated and just keep retaking it until they get lucky. If they are not learning anymore before they pass the exam why should one assume they will learn after they get lucky and pass it.
I am disappointed in the 2015 rates to date: first time FS 54%, repeat FS 23%, which may be due to a decline in college attendees. Or it may just be a short year of statistics. The PS looks mush better, first time PS 78%, repeat PS 45%. I would consider the recent pasts surge in college grads that are in the PS pipeline.
During the first 5-10 years after becoming licensed, did you go back and talk with all the land surveyors that followed your footsteps to see how they felt about your surveys? Odds are, the learning for you did not stop once you were handed that certificate. I bet you continued to learn and develop to the point where you are now, which is most likely far beyond the level of competency you exhibited at that time.
All that I learned after passing the exams would be helpful on the PS, but I doubt I would help on the FS.
Applaud people that that sit for the FS, PS, and state exams. They are achieving goals towards a worthwhile profession.
I applaud and have helped those preparing for the exams and I personally tell them I do not offer them good luck. I do believe that those that work hard will be rewarded, but this is not a lottery, nor should it be.
I also propose that if you fail either test 3 times, you must get additional education and experience and then reapply.
As a comparison let us look at engineering first time FE takers. NCEES only considers those with EAC/ABET degrees:
First time Naval Architecture & Marine 96%
First time Aeronautical/Aerospace 92%
I suspect Annapolis, Coast Guard and Air Force Academy grads pushing those curves up.
At the lowest end for engineering:
First time Geological & Geophysical 65% (I consider this a bear)
First time Industrial 64% (I consider this a bore)
Paul in PA, PE, PLS
Paul in PA, post: 342244, member: 236 wrote: ...
I also propose that if you fail either test 3 times, you must get additional education and experience and then reapply.
Paul in PA
+1
I took the FS in February, found out about 10 days later that I passed. They apparently base everything off of a general curve... meaning the take the last months numbers, throw out base questions and grade you on what is left. I'm sure there's some sort of number they're looking for. I think typically the passing grade would be around 70%, but they don't say as the grading curve varies.
I've always heard the rumor that if you failed a certain amount of times (5x in the story I hear) that you do have to reapply. I don't know how much truth there is in that. Thankfully I didn't need to find out for myself!
No survey related college in my past, but I worked hard, learned all I could, and worked for a small firm that was a big proponent of helping continue the profession by assisting up and coming surveyors, and I passed the FS and PS on the first go round. State specific was on my second shot.
To paraphrase Churchill: Testing is the worst way to judge competence, except for all the others.
No college here, passed both exams first time, was Lucky to be taught to work hard. 😉
I passed! Now to wait to hear about the PS results (10 weeks)
Zoidberg, post: 342364, member: 8841 wrote: I've always heard the rumor that if you failed a certain amount of times (5x in the story I hear) that you do have to reapply. I don't know how much truth there is in that. Thankfully I didn't need to find out for myself!
No survey related college in my past, but I worked hard, learned all I could, and worked for a small firm that was a big proponent of helping continue the profession by assisting up and coming surveyors, and I passed the FS and PS on the first go round. State specific was on my second shot.
Same here. FS PS first shot. Awaiting my NYS exam results now, which was probably the toughest. PS was the easiest. I have a feeling I might be back in April for my 2nd shot at the state exam
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GMPLS, post: 342217, member: 8404 wrote: Yeah, mine was just a couple of years ago too. I got approved for all at the same time. It must be different, depending in the state. Mine was in NY in 2012.
Hmm, I tried to post this under JBrinkworths comment but it replied to the main thread. I must have done something wrong...
How had you felt about the NY specific exam?
I'm awaiting those results now.... I feel could go either way but my guy is telling me I didn't pass.
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Rich., post: 347621, member: 10450 wrote: How had you felt about the NY specific exam?
I'm awaiting those results now.... I feel could go either way but my guy is telling me I didn't pass.
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I had no clue how I did on both the state and PS portions. I was pleasantly surprised when I got the letter saying I had passed while I was at my surprise 40th birthday party.
Good luck!
I just passed the FS exam last month. It only took less than a week for NCEES to post my results.
The interesting thing is now they want me to apply after I passed the exam. With the application I had to do a "Live Scan" and submit it with any and all convictions I have ever had along with official court documents and an explanation of each conviction and proof of rehabilitation.
I had a couple of small run ins with the law almost 20 years ago. So it was kind of a pain in the #%$$ to give them what they wanted, but I completed it the best I could.
I'm in California, does anybody know how long it will take to process my application? I noticed they just received it last week and processed the $50 check yesterday.
Ryan_K, post: 350977, member: 1150 wrote: I just passed the FS exam last month. It only took less than a week for NCEES to post my results.
The interesting thing is now they want me to apply after I passed the exam. With the application I had to do a "Live Scan" and submit it with any and all convictions I have ever had along with official court documents and an explanation of each conviction and proof of rehabilitation.
I had a couple of small run ins with the law almost 20 years ago. So it was kind of a pain in the #%$$ to give them what they wanted, but I completed it the best I could.
I'm in California, does anybody know how long it will take to process my application? I noticed they just received it last week and processed the $50 check yesterday.
You had to apply after taking the FS? Are you completing/completed a degree in surveying? I know in NY they let you take the FS if you are within so close of graduating without needing board approval. Then you need board approval for the PS after gathering your work experience.
I as well had an unfortunate run in with the law when I was 21. Too much fun and drinking one night and I got pulled over. :-/ I paid for it dearly as the judge held nothing back on me. And I'm glad he did what he did.
I disclosed everything on the application and wrote a letter explaining what had happened.
It was not an issue.
Zoidberg, post: 342364, member: 8841 wrote: I've always heard the rumor that if you failed a certain amount of times (5x in the story I hear) that you do have to reapply. I don't know how much truth there is in that. Thankfully I didn't need to find out for myself!
That's different state to state. I've lived and worked in states that had that limit at 3 failures, but don't know if they've kept those limits in place. In CA, as the law is now, once your application is accepted, you can take, and retake, and retake... as long as your check clears each time. A few years back, one of our Board members told a story of having visited one of the testing sites on exam day. On his way out, one of the examinees stopped to chat. That guy had just completed his 23rd attempt at the exam. His parting comment to the Board member? "See you next year!"
If your state does have such a rule, you will find it in the statutes that cover the licensing of surveyors, or perhaps in the administrative code by which the licensing agency operates. If it's not in either of those locations, then it probably is nothing more than rumor. I hope that the states that had it have kept it in place and continue to do so. I wish CA had a 3 strikes rule.
Ryan_K, post: 350977, member: 1150 wrote: I just passed the FS exam last month. It only took less than a week for NCEES to post my results.
The interesting thing is now they want me to apply after I passed the exam. With the application I had to do a "Live Scan" and submit it with any and all convictions I have ever had along with official court documents and an explanation of each conviction and proof of rehabilitation.
I had a couple of small run ins with the law almost 20 years ago. So it was kind of a pain in the #%$$ to give them what they wanted, but I completed it the best I could.
I'm in California, does anybody know how long it will take to process my application? I noticed they just received it last week and processed the $50 check yesterday.
Ryan_K, currently the EIT/LSIT applications are taking about 30-45 days to process. If you have any questions, feel free to contact the EIT/LSIT Evaluator at 916-263-2232 or [email protected] for status as that will be the person that will have answers for you.
BPELSG was one of the last boards in California to implement fingerprinting and the legislature made that decision for us. Once BPELSG receives the confirmation reports back from the California Department of Justice, the certification can be issued if all other requirements have been met. In our short experience with DOJ, most of the reports are received within 1-2 weeks. However, we have experienced some intermittently that have taken longer and not necessarily due to the individual's background. While we continue to press DOJ on these delays, apparently FBI works at their own pace.
eapls2708, post: 351240, member: 589 wrote: That's different state to state. I've lived and worked in states that had that limit at 3 failures, but don't know if they've kept those limits in place. In CA, as the law is now, once your application is accepted, you can take, and retake, and retake... as long as your check clears each time. A few years back, one of our Board members told a story of having visited one of the testing sites on exam day. On his way out, one of the examinees stopped to chat. That guy had just completed his 23rd attempt at the exam. His parting comment to the Board member? "See you next year!"
If your state does have such a rule, you will find it in the statutes that cover the licensing of surveyors, or perhaps in the administrative code by which the licensing agency operates. If it's not in either of those locations, then it probably is nothing more than rumor. I hope that the states that had it have kept it in place and continue to do so. I wish CA had a 3 strikes rule.
It's my experience that approximately half the licensing jurisdictions have some sort of additional requirement(s) in place should a candidate fail to pass any of the required exams. And for a much smaller number of those, that candidate is done and no more attempts are allowed. Those individuals tend to simply apply in a different state. The others handle it on a case by case basis and to my knowledge are allowed to continue testing after meeting those additional requirements. The remainder of the jurisdictions are similar to California and don't limit the number of attempts.
To me it is a wash either way it is handled. Generally the states that have attempt limitations handle much smaller number of candidates than California does and VERY FEW that have not passed after three attempts in the other states (including California) are ever successful with passing the exam(s). I could probably count those on one hand in the nine years that I am aware of it.
Rich., post: 350980, member: 10450 wrote: You had to apply after taking the FS? Are you completing/completed a degree in surveying? I know in NY they let you take the FS if you are within so close of graduating without needing board approval. Then you need board approval for the PS after gathering your work experience.
I as well had an unfortunate run in with the law when I was 21. Too much fun and drinking one night and I got pulled over. :-/ I paid for it dearly as the judge held nothing back on me. And I'm glad he did what he did.
I disclosed everything on the application and wrote a letter explaining what had happened.
It was not an issue.
Approximately half the states require an application with the board first before allowing a candidate to sit for the FS or FE exam. NY is one of those. The others accept the applications after the candidate has completed all the requirements which the exam is just one requirement.
This discussion reminded me of a fellow who was in engineering college at the same time I was. I think it took him about 8 or 9 years but he eventually got enough passing grades to meet the degree requirement for graduation. Several times he took three tries at a specific class before he was able to pass it. What killed him was the mandatory basic classes that all engineering students are forced to take. Once he got to the level where the courses were more focused on the actual application of the theories taught in the prerequisite courses he did much better. He not only graduated but was hired by a major manufacturer of industrial equipment immediately.
eapls2708, post: 351240, member: 589 wrote: I hope that the states that had it have kept it in place and continue to do so. I wish CA had a 3 strikes rule.
If I were writing the rules, after failing twice the person would have to get an additional two years experience before each further attempt at the test.
Ric Moore, post: 351246, member: 731 wrote: It's my experience that approximately half the licensing jurisdictions have some sort of additional requirement(s) in place should a candidate fail to pass any of the required exams...
Generally the states that have attempt limitations handle much smaller number of candidates than California does and VERY FEW that have not passed after three attempts in the other states (including California) are ever successful with passing the exam(s). I could probably count those on one hand in the nine years that I am aware of it.
Maybe I'm alone in this, but that fact alone seems to scream for a provision to require more experience and education at that point.
eapls2708, post: 351271, member: 589 wrote: Maybe I'm alone in this, but that fact alone seems to scream for a provision to require more experience and education at that point.
There would be no point to since the odds of passing any exams at that point is closing in on the neighborhood of high single or low double digits. When the occasional one has, I've personally called them and their professional references to ask what they did different and the answer is almost always that they learned to evaluate their deficiencies better and adjust either their working responsibilities, study focus, or both. I can tell you that 99.9% of us passed with a great deal of deficiencies to our credit. Some just are better at gauging their minimum readiness sooner than others.