Two year degree in surveying is better than four in ..lets say geography.
> Two year degree in surveying is better than four in ..lets say geography.
Possibly, but a good 4 year degree in a related field can be worth quite a bit. I believe if you can jump through all of the hoops in getting a 4 year degree, you probably possess the ability to learn what you need to be a good surveyor with some experience as opposed to someone who had no degree at all. Besides, with a 2 year degree you miss out on reading all of that Shakespeare 😀 . But all kidding aside, I do believe all of those general education classes in Liberal Arts and Humanities did help me professionally.
If it has hurt the profession, it has hurt it right where it needs to be hurt.
Well .....
Yep, Right here in Texas, I know an Interior Decorator with an RPLS
I don't have a strong opinion on requiring a 2 or 4 year degree. I tend to like the multiple-paths rules that let you trade education and experience.
But what I gather from the example situations discussed here is that, above all, boundary surveyors should be required to have more hours of boundary law education than they usually get, even with a four-year degree.
Question! How much boundary law is required in the four year college programs? Is the common law about boundaries taught? If a substantial number of hours were mandated this would be good. I mean "boundary law", not law about technical standards as is the requirement in my own state of Washington. In my experience lack of knowledge of boundary law is the most glaring shortcoming of our profession. And, I am thinking of those surveyors who are conscientious and honest, not the ones just in it for a buck.
My own eight years of college were in another field. I taught myself the math and technical standards from survey textbooks. The problem is- the most important part of surveying involve judgement about what legal principle applies to the present situation. If the college courses in a survey program emphasize the modern tendency toward technology then the impetus will be towards a technocratic profession (if that is not an oxymoron).
So in my opinion it depends entirely on how much good judgement is used in designing the curriculum.
Stephen
Why not just improve the exam?
I don't have a degree and I'm not a licensed surveyor. I have almost ten years of survey experience and I'm currently studying for my FS exam.
Granted I haven't taken the exam yet but it does seem to cover only a narrow aspect of surveying. In all the study guides I have gone through there are almost no geodesy or GPS related questions. Seems like you could be a PLS and have almost no knowledge of geodesy or GPS...but I have seen plenty of sample questions concerning chaining???
If Nebraska decided tomorrow to require a four year degree in surveying to be licensed I would not pursue a surveying degree. I love surveying but if I'm putting forth the time, effort and cash to get a degree why not get an Engineering degree where I can make better money?
If you can pass the exam then what difference does it make if you have a degree or not?
Much of the profession is related to engineering but then there is boundary which requires a different type of reasoning and problem solving which is the opposite of engineering in many cases.
We have boundary books written by engineers which work fine in many cases but often land surveyors don't know when to put the Brown down, drop back and punt.
Of course you could make a wonderful boundary surveyor with a targeted four year curriculum but how many do we really need per State, maybe 2 or 3?
If we got serious about doing real boundary surveys and making a system of public monuments and having everything tied together and reproducible and if the public really knows what monuments and boundaries are then there would be a call for two professions, engineering surveying and boundary surveyors like the have in the U.K.
"Question! How much boundary law is required in the four year college programs?"
Not enough. Few are qualified to teach it.
Why not just improve the exam?
You raise two excellent points that our profession has not successfully dealt with.
1. Why do we have exams that do not sufficiently cover the body of knowledge that is required for competent practice?
2. Why do we not take practical steps to improve the salary and social status of our profession?
I think departing from ABET and NCEES would be an excellent start...We can't keep hanging around like Civil Engineering's annoying little kid brother.
> Much of the profession is related to engineering but then there is boundary which requires a different type of reasoning and problem solving which is the opposite of engineering in many cases.
>
> We have boundary books written by engineers which work fine in many cases but often land surveyors don't know when to put the Brown down, drop back and punt.
>
> Of course you could make a wonderful boundary surveyor with a targeted four year curriculum but how many do we really need per State, maybe 2 or 3?
>
> If we got serious about doing real boundary surveys and making a system of public monuments and having everything tied together and reproducible and if the public really knows what monuments and boundaries are then there would be a call for two professions, engineering surveying and boundary surveyors like the have in the U.K.
:good:
Imho, the best book on boundary Surveying was written by an Engineer, if you have to ask which one , well........
Why not just improve the exam?
Number 2 is my issue; as an LSIT I don't make enough to pay bills for the family and set aside to go back to school (already have 2, 2 year degrees). The possibility of getting a large raise following completion of a 4 year degree is small, so it would be unwise to get a loan. Pay needs to go up, which is related to what the profession charges, which is related to how we value ourselves, which can be improved with broadened horizons.
On a side note, pure anecdotal observation is that it seems that the less a person reads, the poorer they perform at crew chief duties.
Helped.
> Question! How much boundary law is required in the four year college programs? Is the common law about boundaries taught? If a substantial number of hours were mandated this would be good. I mean "boundary law", not law about technical standards as is the requirement in my own state of Washington. In my experience lack of knowledge of boundary law is the most glaring shortcoming of our profession. And, I am thinking of those surveyors who are conscientious and honest, not the ones just in it for a buck.
>
:good:
> My own eight years of college were in another field. I taught myself the math and technical standards from survey textbooks. The problem is- the most important part of surveying involve judgement about what legal principle applies to the present situation. If the college courses in a survey program emphasize the modern tendency toward technology then the impetus will be towards a technocratic profession (if that is not an oxymoron).
>
> So in my opinion it depends entirely on how much good judgement is used in designing the curriculum.
>
Asking whether or not a degree is good for both the public and the profession is meaningless without considering the content of the educational programs, similarly, supporting the experience route is meaningless if the experience obtained is, shall we say, less than optimal.
HELPED!
Started as a crew member and worked my way up to doing EVERYTHING, but could not sign the drawings. Always complained that I knew as much as any of the licensed guys, but could not write the state exam without a 4 year degree.
Went back to school and got my degree. I did not know EVERYTHING like I thought I did. Sure some of the classes on field procedures and CAD where a waste of time, but overall I gained from the experience and MY CLIENTS WILL as well.
Yes. I earned a BA in Secondary Education (English) and it has helped be immensely. I can say with confidence that it has not hurt me in any way. I learned surveying the old fashion way, but I learned professionalism, grammar and a whole bunch of big words that help me explain things about surveying. Public speaking is a class that I would recommend to anyone. Writing class is a good one too.
Helped
but always there are exceptions for individuals who may have the "right stuff" and there should be paths for licensure for extraordinary applicants based on their education, experience and training..
I have read about half of Skelton. An interesting book because he often has opposing cases on similar problems rather than just espousing a fixed principle.
> > There was 1 new PLS that passed the May 2013 Idaho Exam. If that's any indication of what a 4 year degree does.......
>
> It's not any indication other than the candidates were either unprepared for the exam or there was not a large pool of candidates interested in licensure in Idaho. IMHO;-)
....or there could be a small pool of candidates that actually had a four-year-degree.... Back to the age-old problem of many surveyors have a wife and kids and are working in the field just to keep food on the table, and many of the kids out of high school have no interest in becoming a land surveyor. Colorado tried to have a four-year-degree and was even on track for ABET accreditation, but less and less students went through the program.
HELPED!
I had a 4-year degree in civil engineering and went back to get another 4-year degree in land surveying. My state board will not accept an engineering degree in place of a surveying degree, and they shouldn't.
Of the two degrees (and two licenses for that matter) surveying is far more valuable and marketable. Because of the degree requirement there are far fewer surveyors around here now. If I was just a PE it would be much harder to find a job.