Just wanted to let everyone know that the Great Basin Online Surveying Program has been suspended. The department head is leaving and no new admissions will be taken. This is due to Nevada budget cuts. I am extremely disappointed as this program was one of the only completely online surveying four year programs. Another important note is obviously they will never get the ABET certification, which many of the students were expecting.
I'm a great believer in the power of the free market. On-line degree programs for Surveying, as currently being delivered, just aren't able to compete in the free market. If Great Basin where making even a small profit from the program while paying it's instructors market wages, the program would survive.
We need to find an alternative way to deliver these programs that can compete and survive.
Why do we need more than one on-line degree program? Two or three, perhaps, would provide the market with the competition needed to improve quality and keep prices down. But it seems to me that having several simply multiplies the costs without adding to the product.
Why do we need ABET accreditation? I know, because various state boards have glommed onto ABET as proof of quality. But is no other form of proof possible?
I see an opening for a national organization of surveyors to get involved.
We're going to have to re-think the whole 4 year degree path to license. In Ohio there’s only (I believe) 2 schools offering a B.S. in surveying. Ohio isn't that big of state but when you're married, have two small kids (my partner not me, I got licensed on experience)it's kind of hard to travel 1 1/2hrs to 2hrs one way every night. I really believe a crash course of technical courses could be fit into an A.S. with the same time requirements to sit for the LSIT & PS as now. I think in fact you'd have a better end product with 2yr school+2yr experience before the LSIT then 4 years for the PS. Probably 6 to 8 years for the PS to tell you the truth. I see to many people with 4yrs schooling then 4yrs experience going out on their own once they get their ticket. Some are ready, must aren't and should stay under someones wing for a little longer.
Therese nothing about taking classes in art appreciation and bowling that make a better surveyor than someone who has spent 2yrs in a survey heavy program.
If a kid comes out of high school and wants to go to college for 4yrs and spend his parents money that fine. But most people I know in surveying don't realize they want to be a surveyor until the are in the field and by then unless they live near one of the few schools that offer a 4yr degree they're kind of screwed.
With most states requiring continuing education I don't see why experience is such a bad thing. Maybe toughen the test and the continuing education requirements. If not you'll be seeing more states going back to accepting engineering, forestry degrees and architectural degrees because not enough people will have survey degrees.
Sad to see Great Basin's online program going away.
Norm, great idea but you may have a problem getting every state to agree to accept the programs. The state boards may be more interested in protecting their members jobs as "educators" part time or otherwise. I agree with your stance on ABET accredidation.
> ...but when you're married, have two small kids (my partner not me, I got licensed on experience)it's kind of hard to travel 1 1/2hrs to 2hrs one way every night....
That, of course, is the beauty of an on-line course.
> There is nothing about taking classes in art appreciation and bowling that make a better surveyor than someone who has spent 2yrs in a survey heavy program.
There is a line of thinking that says that some education in the arts makes a more well rounded person, and being a more well rounded person is certainly a desirable thing.
> ..most people I know in surveying don't realize they want to be a surveyor until the are in the field ...
A work-study type of program would seem to fit the surveying very well.
> With most states requiring continuing education I don't see why experience is such a bad thing. Maybe toughen the test and the continuing education requirements.
I have at times made this same comment. But I wonder if just toughening the test is really practical. At one time the California test was very tough and had a pass rate in the low single digits. I'm not sure if this means that the Californians who passed are better surveyors or just better test takers.
> Norm, great idea but you may have a problem getting every state to agree to accept the programs. The state boards may be more interested in protecting their members jobs as "educators" part time or otherwise.
My comments were specifically aimed at on-line courses. And I never thought that a change in thinking was going to be easy.
Any idea where Jim is going?
I'm a current student at GBC.
He is going to Nicholls State University
Check out their website. It looks like a good program. ABET accredited too.
Dammit. I just signed up for the program at GBC. Actually in my first semester of many more. Looks like I might have to transfer over. I just caught wind of GBC program ending last night. Wish I knew this up front. PIA trying to get all the paperwork done and signup, etc, etc.
Well, just so you don't feel lonely. I am actually 5 classes away from graduation and they didn't bother telling me.I had to ask them.
Yes, looks like a good program but I dont know if its available online.
From what I've been told, GBC is obligated to provide current students with the required survey classes. The catch is that students will have to enroll in enough courses each semester to complete the four-year program by June of 2016.
If they wish to take their program online, Jim would be the right guy.
I been taking GBC classes to meet my continuing education. I'm close to meeting the requirements for a degree but really don't need one as I already have a degree in engineering and all the licenses I need (LS & PE). I'm sad to see the program being suspended.
I think that the program was sustainable, but GBC is a state college and they reduced the Statewide budget, forcing budget cuts and cutting programs in outlying colleges to put more money in Vegas...so there is more to it than just profitability. The truth is there is a market for a quality online degree program, the problem is that getting the ABET certification takes time and is costly. Until you have that certification, getting students is more difficult.
I don't really need the degree either, but i will be darned if I am stopping this close to graduation.
> I think that the program was sustainable, but GBC is a state college and they reduced the Statewide budget...
If the program was profitable, and therefore self sustaining, statewide budget cuts wouldn't have negatively affected it. It's an on-line program we are talking about here, so even if it's base campus was closed it wouldn't make much difference, if any.
FWIW,
In my experience that's not the way it works. University programs fight for resources and faculty. When a program has relatively low enrollment it is at risk of elimination. Important, prestigious or politically connected programs can survive. Surveying program have problems with low enrollments, low prestige and inadequate support from the profession.
All university activities entail costs, even on-line programs. On-line programs must be developed and maintained. There is a great deal of high-quality coursework available on the internet. The MIT Open Course Ware materials contain enough to provide a motivated learner a great experience. Unfortunately, they do not provide credit. Telling your prospective employer that you "took" such a course will likely not help.
I do not know if any of the for-profit schools, e.g. Phoenix U, offer surveying programs. If there were money in it, I imagine they would develop one.
Cheers,
DMM
BTW, there is an interesting discussion if MOOC at http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/11/sebastian_thrun_and_udacity_distance_learning_is_unsuccessful_for_most_students.html
I like the description that these course are commodified and impersonal. Just what most folks want?
> I do not know if any of the for-profit schools, e.g. Phoenix U, offer surveying programs. If there were money in it, I imagine they would develop one.
That is my point. If the cost of on-line delivery were reduced by reduction of duplication of effort, and the enrollment was concentrated in just 2 or 3 programs offered nationwide, the programs would likely be profitable, and therefore self sustaining.
What we may have is bad money chasing out the good. That is, state funded programs muddling along just enough to discourage a for-profit school, like Phoenix U., from getting into the game and maybe doing it right.
End Great Basin Online Degree - Start of OIT Online classes
> Just wanted to let everyone know that the Great Basin Online Surveying Program has been suspended. The department head is leaving and no new admissions will be taken. This is due to Nevada budget cuts. I am extremely disappointed as this program was one of the only completely online surveying four year programs. Another important note is obviously they will never get the ABET certification, which many of the students were expecting.
Sad to hear Jim is moving and the program will not sustain. That is rough for the surveying community as a whole and all involved with the program. I am pro education always. Not sure if it would help since programs are pretty different across the board but OIT just started offering online surveying courses. By no means is the whole degree program there but it's worth a look.
http://www.oit.edu/libraries/geomatics-documents/geomatics-online-courses.pdf
While there are many problems with public and traditional private universities, the "for profit" model is hardly without faults.
They make their money in large part by getting students to take on debt. Much of this debt is from federal government programs. I understand they have low graduation rates.
The quote below is from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/25/university-of-phoenix-accreditation_n_2762168.html
For-profit colleges such as the University of Phoenix get much of their revenue from federal aid programs, including subsidized student loans and Pell grants. The University of Phoenix last year received 84 percent of its revenue from federal financial aid programs, totaling more than $3.2 billion, according to company securities filings.
As surveying law varies from state to state how could a few for profit schools serve the surveying community?
Cheers,
DMM
> They make their money in large part by getting students to take on debt. Much of this debt is from federal government programs. I understand they have low graduation rates.
Is that really any different from "non-profit" public schools?
The HuffPo piece give figures about Phoenix U. with giving any comparable figure for traditional universities. But I think we can safely say that lots of people go to traditional colleges on student loans and federal aid grants, and lots of them fail to graduate as well.
