VIF
I had a foundation plan once where every dimension was followed with VIF. It was new construction.
Engineers and Architects
> Why won't they listen?
Ah, but you are also an Engineer, correct?
The Engineer is like the Flying Dutchman, condemned to sail through life wondering why the mortals with whom he comes into contact will not listen to him for instruction in all matters.
I mean don't most Engineers love to tell Surveyors how to make a survey? "We don't need all that stuff. It will cost too much. Just get me some shots" is a great example that comes to mind. :>
Engineers and Architects
I aspire to obtain my PE, but for now I work under one for the purposes of engineering work. I employ a PE and an EIT. Sadly I know more practical engineering than the two of them combined. Perhaps they know more of that theory stuff than I do...
I am often called an engineer as I do represent projects before Zoning, Planning, Conservation, Health and Historical. As most of the meetings are televised I often reply, 'I am not an engineer, but I play one on TV.'
If I only had the time to pursue everything I want to pursue...
Engineers and Architects
> I aspire to obtain my PE, but for now I work under one for the purposes of engineering work.
The thing to remember about Architects is how publicly they practice their professions. The building gets built and then it is what it is. There is no finessing the failures. The occupants know what doesn't particularly work and passersby have opinions.
Contrast that to what Land Surveyors do where blunders often are only discovered when some other surveyor arrives to take more care with the work.
Engineers, yes if the sewage doesn't run downhill, it was a poor effort. If the building falls down, likewise. But the way that most careful engineers deal with that stuff is just to over rig everything - capacities larger than needed and plenty of safety factors with the knowledge that it probably can all be pinned on the contractor if things go South.
No, no, no.
I have a great deal of difficulty respecting a profession who's fees are a percentage of the construction cost of the project they design AND approve change orders for. That just doesn't sit right with me somehow...
Engineers and Architects
I was working with an architect who designed a hideous building. The client liked it.
During design it was 50 S.F. over the building coverage. The architect said, "The building is about 50 feet deep, so I will take a foot out of the middle." He then countered himself, "Why don't I take 18" out of the middle for some extra room to comply." I responded, "Why don't you take out 16" and remove a joist." His reply, "Oh, I leave all that to the structural engineer."
I work on many mcmansions with many PIA architects who create more waste with their designs. The best is when they are LEED certified and they make sure every board in the building is cut. Dumpster diving is good on those sites.
Balancing act
Tell me, are there more good people at the IRS or in the architecture profession?
I am glad you have some good ones.
One I am working with one who had Power of Attorney. Client said he was thinking about a garage. Architect designed, permitted and constructed a $750,000 garage. The client paid but said, you realize that the paper road cannot be constructed with the garage here and there are 6 lots out back each worth 3-5 million? The architect had no clue...
Balancing act
And then what happened?
Balancing act
They had no plans to develop the land at this time. They are just waiting.
No, no, no.
I have to agree Bruce. Good on you for chiming in. I have a few Architect clients that understand mapping, engineering and development far beyond most Surveyors. The majority that I know with poor reputations aren't bad either. They (just like nearly everyone) simply don't respond well to be upbraided by folks who have no Professional courtesy.
My .02, Tom
Long ago when I was a beginning office pup one task regularly assigned to me was to add up the interior floorplan dimensions of a structure for comparison with the exterior layout plan footprint dimensions. A pain in the ass as it's all feet and inches stuff. It was shocking to find the interior dimensions total was almost always (sometimes a foot or more) longer than the exterior dimension, or there were missing dimensions or contradictory dimensions.
When confronted it was a mixed bag. Some architects totally ignored us, some fired back (by phone of course) we don't know how to read interior plans and to just do our jobs and stake the building envelope, and a few (very few, actually) sent us revised plans a few days later with the interior dimensions jiggered so they actually added up right, with a "thank you for your attention to detail" note, and rarely, a bottle of Jack. I still remember one time the bust was 6 1/2' and we got back the considerably revised floorplans, the note and a 6-pack of Jack!
Thank God everything's in CAD now so this never happens anymore. Also, I miss the bottle of Jack tradition when somebody saves another's bacon on a job, although I admit we had to give out a few bottles ourselves. One other oddity is the next outfit I worked for didn't bother making the comparison, "What goes on inside the building is none of our business, that's the architect's problem." My position was we're all working for the client to make it right for him.
Engineers and Architects
" "Why don't you take out 16" and remove a joist." His reply, "Oh, I leave all that to the structural engineer.""
Too funny AND too true.
I have a brother-in-law who is an Architect I will call A. I have another brother-in-law who is a custom home builder I will call B. On occasion, A has designed custom homes. On occasion, B has been hired to build custom homes designed by A. This has resulted in some of the most amazing and entertaining conversations and displays of non-comprehension I have ever witnessed. A, although quite intelligent, will retire having never gained the comprehension that 8" and multiples thereof are standard building units. He does understand that the 45° corner cutoffs that are a staple in his designs cost the buyer as much as $25,000 extra apiece over square corners. He also understands that there are very few pieces of furniture that fit in those 45° corners, but in his words "The placement of the furniture is not my concern"...
> Thank God everything's in CAD now so this never happens anymore.
You would think so, wouldn't you? But I had one several years ago where I was given the architect's CAD file, and the CAD model did not match any of the dimensions on the plans, usually missing by an inch or so. The house also had a weird angle in it, not 45 or 30 degrees, but something like 23-16'-22"! All the dimensions were given in 32nds of an inch.
I also had a foundation plan (for a small single family residence that was roughly "L" shaped) not close by over 9 FEET! When I contacted the architect, he didn't seem to understand the problem and just said "Fix it", so I closed it at a convenient spot and sent the architect a dimensioned sketch and told him he had to approve it in writing, which he did. The house got built just fine. I always wondered how important it was to have an architect if a 9 foot error (on a 36 foot house) didn't make any difference!
On another note, I had an architect earlier this year prepare a proposed site plan from my existing conditions plan, and he left my title block on making it look like it was my proposed plan. After I complained, he did remove my name from the title block. I got the final plan today (with just his name on it) and it now has... a copyright notice!
I was at a cafe' several summers ago. The owner introduced me to a fellow who was on vacation for the summer and was frequenting the establishment. This fellow was an architecture professor at MIT. I implored him to teach his students mathematical closure and he was in shock. I threw salt at the wound and told him that building designers almost always have their closures in good order.
A few years ago I took over a project from a surveyor who was moving up. We were down to staking out the footer for a curved "accent" wall at the entrance to the structure. This wall had no function, it was just 15 feet from the building but was attached by exposed I-beams. My guys took out the stake out point created by the other surveyor but checked by me. I double checked the arc of the wall and the dimensions of the steel from the main building to the wall. Everything looked fine. They stake it and everything was fine until they tried to place the connecting beams. Too short. I get called by the general for a meeting on site, so I re-run our numbers, everything looks good so the only problem can be the field crew screwed up laying it out. I tell them to meet me out there an couple of hours before the meeting to check everything out. Everything is where we said it should be but the steel is still longt. I measure out a few of the beams and all are too long. I get into the meeting and tell the general what I found and the architect interupts that that shouldn't I shouldn't be using the steel plans, they'd sent a knew footer plan sheet. Problem with the footer plan is you had to look on 4 different sheets to get all the data needed so the original surveyor used the steel plan. We weren't given new steel plans because we were just staking the footers and didn't need a new steel plan. I got mighty ticked and said a few things that I probably wouldn't now I'm older and wiser but still held back from saying everthing I thought. As we were walking out the general asked if we would eat half and he would eat the other half. I told him I'm send the invoice up the line and he tells me the j.o. architect just moved the wall 6 inches because it would look better. I had several request for staking come in that where based on that architects plans and politely refused everyone. It only hurt us but I know they would have all cost us in the end.
Engineers and Architects
Can't we go back to simply bashing Lawyers and Realtors?
I always think of them as artists. They don't live in our world and are not to be constrained by such trivialities as Building Codes or Laws of Physics.
They dream, they reach, they fly, they have got to be smokin some good stuff man. Have you not seen "The Fountainhead"?
They offer us a challenge. If the Civil Engineer and The Surveyor cannot bring The Architect's ethereal concepts to concrete fruition are we not our selves failures?
When we poke fun at them, is it truly derision or is it simply allaying our fear of failure with giggling childish mockery?
But.
They might just be egotistical dorks.
