flyin solo, post: 327685, member: 8089 wrote: i worked inside a big civil/development firm for a decade, and am now basically a subsidiary of a much smaller development firm. my AR is typically longer, but it's expected. the usual process is that i'm doing the up-front work that the engineers use to design whatever is needed in order for the client to get their financing in the first place. so i'm typically not getting paid until there's at least a decent idea that the project is getting financed in the first place.
Do the engineers that work on these projects wait for months before they see their first dollar? The ones in my area don't, they get retainers (and they are usually non-refundable). And what happens if the project doesn't get financed? Are you just out of luck on payment? I believe surveyors need to get smarter and get in the habit of asking for retainers (just like rest of the professional world).
I honestly don't know- but will say they/we are working with known quantities 99% of the time- established relationships that have been in place for years.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 327724, member: 6939 wrote: Do the engineers that work on these projects wait for months before they see their first dollar? ....
I work for a medium sized engineering firm, the 4th such firm I have worked for since 1997. The 5th firm I was with in that time worked almost exclusively for medium and large sized engineering firms. Yes, engineers sometimes work for months before seeing the first dollar. And sometimes they get stuck for a bill.
One trick of the trade is to progress bill very early in the process. Like in the first week. Don't wait till the job is done before billing. Start the clock ticking right away.
When I did private work one of my regular clients was a small time Engineering firm. Deliver fast, wait months to get paid not enough, never again, not interested.
Careful of 'Paid when paid' clause in contracts. Survey is only part of the project. If other subcontractors like Soil Testing, Hydrology, Design etc screws up, the entire project could be placed on hold. Surveyors have the advantage of stalling a project because designs are based on survey results. We have leverage so use it. Don't worry about them getting other surveyors, they usually stick with guys who have produced good results for them in the past.
FrancisH, post: 327805, member: 10211 wrote: Careful of 'Paid when paid' clause in contracts...
Pay when paid clauses are often unenforceable. So they may have little meaning. More often it is a question of playing along if you want to develop a relationship with an engineer/architect client. Go ahead and demand instant payment if you don't want to work for that outfit again. If you do, build the expectation that it will take 60-90 days to turn your bill around into your fees.
Most Engineers and Architects are not rolling in money, but they are generally a little better than surveyors at not racing each other to the bottom.
Norman Oklahoma, post: 328172, member: 9981 wrote: ....Most Engineers and Architects are not rolling in money, but they are generally a little better than surveyors at not racing each other to the bottom.
Nor so funny story about an engineer here in OKC. He had procured a contract from OKC for some domestic waterline replacement in a very old part of town (down by the river....). Some of the plats were vacated, some were not. There were streets where there was no R/W and houses sitting in the RW.
He asked me for a price to provide a topo and R/W locations for the project. Having already contracted the project he apparently was on a tight budget. When I told him my estimated fees he had a fit. He said the surveying fees would then exceed his engineering fees. I calmly explained that could very well be the case. The area was wrought with bad records and poor control. I also told him water line replacement wasn't the most in-depth type of engineering project, either....I also had to ask him where the rule book was that stated engineers always had to make more on a job than surveyors.
We never agreed on anything. I found out later he prepared his construction prints with no survey at all. I did talk to some folks at the City about the job and was told it became a frightful mess. I hope it cost him a fortune with change orders. If I thought it would do any good I'd tell everybody the SOB's name....but most surveyors around here already know his name anyway.
Pay when paid clauses are often unenforceable.
Unenforceable if you reach a court decision saying so, but if you have not brought it to court then the client would point you to this clause in the contract as cause for the delay in the payment. I have currently one project for a MAJOR engineering consulting firm that is pending for 10 months now (and still counting). I am being given the runaround saying their client is still reviewing the work. That's BS. The client does not review nor has the capability to "review" survey plans.
How does one review a survey plan? Wouldn't you need to also have a total station or GPS to review the data? You can't stay in the office and say
"ummm, this spot elevation is off by 10 cm I think so we won't pay you until I verify this."
FrancisH, post: 328590, member: 10211 wrote: Unenforceable if you reach a court decision saying so,....
By the time you get to arguing over contract language the relationship is already sideways and both sides have lawyered up.
FrancisH, post: 328590, member: 10211 wrote: I have currently one project for a MAJOR engineering consulting firm that is pending for 10 months now (and still counting). I am being given the runaround saying their client is still reviewing the work.
So am I the only one here that thinks the engineering design should not start until the survey is payed for?