I was reading the other day in the July 2015 issue xyHt magazine an article about Seniority of Title and Forward Search. Apparently this is going to be a series on common research mistakes that surveyors make. Just in this first article, it goes into the various ways courts have to use to determine who title is superior when there are multiple deeds on the same property. It also speaks to the importance of searching forward in the chain of title from every grantor in the chain to the present because apparently grantors can record transactions they have made in the past at any time (including long after they have sold their interests).
My question is, why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen? Should the surveying community lobby for something better?
Isn't this why there are transactional attorneys and title companies? Also, the "magazine" you refer to is the old POB, is it not? Some deeds hold more weight than others, warranty, quit claim, title in fee......
It is what it is. Live with it, move from it or become a legislature and spend every one's money to fix it.
While you are waiting do some research on what and how long it takes to create a Torrens Land System.
Paul in PA
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 326429, member: 6939 wrote: My question is, why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen? Should the surveying community lobby for something better?
As long as the legal community and title insurance industry can generate income off a bad land registration system the tiny voice of the "surveying community" advocating for something different would drowned out.
We tossed around the idea of eliminating "mortgage surveys" from the minimum standards of practice here in Maryland recently and it wasn't just the title companies that squealed, it was the surveyors who made a "living" performing them. (I don't really blame the title people, I mean if you can get someone to sell you their professional liability for $150 you gotta take them up on it).
I suspect that "something better": for example a registered coordinated cadastral system like Switzerland that greatly reduced the need for (and time it took to perform) boundary retracement surveys while increasing the educational standards needed to perform the surveys (post graduate degree required for cadastral surveying there) would ultimately be opposed by most of the surveying community here.
The MA Land Court Registration works fairly well, but it's optional. But once registered it's always registered unless you choose to unregister the land. Title and location backed by the State.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 326429, member: 6939 wrote: I was reading the other day in the July 2015 issue xyHt magazine an article about Seniority of Title and Forward Search. Apparently this is going to be a series on common research mistakes that surveyors make. Just in this first article, it goes into the various ways courts have to use to determine who title is superior when there are multiple deeds on the same property. It also speaks to the importance of searching forward in the chain of title from every grantor in the chain to the present because apparently grantors can record transactions they have made in the past at any time (including long after they have sold their interests).
My question is, why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen? Should the surveying community lobby for something better?
That's what recording statutes are for. But some areas do have extensive title registration (torrens) systems. MN and MA come to mind, not sure where else. But I hope the authors understand that senior title for land boundary positions is subservient to retracement. Much of the pincushion problem stems from staking senior rights instead of following the footsteps IMHO.
The 'system' here isn't really a system. It is 50 variations of Statute and case law that must be understood and dealt with. We didn't sit down and think out how to do it, it just happened. The only thing worse would be changing to a new system...
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 326429, member: 6939 wrote: ..My question is, why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen? Should the surveying community lobby for something better?
Maybe I'm just use to it, but the land registration system in down here seems to work fairly well. Entries are sometimes wrought with confusing errors and at times get misfiled, but I have not really ever seen an example of the bad land registration system in Oklahoma. I have definitely seen examples of people misusing the system, however.
Should we lobby for something better? My knee jerk reaction is probably a resounding no. Although there are good examples of title issues that constantly require litigation to quiet, the system itself seems to work. The implementation of a "change" might be a good example of the cure being worse than the malady.
PLS30820, post: 326431, member: 1439 wrote: .... Also, the "magazine" you refer to is the old POB, is it not? ......
It is not, the old POB is still the old POB. I believe xyHt is the old PS.
The reason we (your average, every day citizens) put up with this is ignorance; oh, and money.
Dougie
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 326429, member: 6939 wrote: ....My question is, why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen?
With a few local exceptions, such as in MA, there is no Land Registration system in the United States, bad or otherwise.
I worked in British Columbia, during the early part of my career, which does have a Land Registration System. I bought and sold 2 homes there. The system has it's advantages, it has it's disadvantages. IN terms of work load for lawyers & surveyors, and costs to real estate transactions, I think it is about a wash. Title Companies are unknown there, their place in the process replaced by a government agency - which has to be fed.
RADAR, post: 326463, member: 413 wrote: It is not, the old POB is still the old POB. I believe xyHt is the old PS.
The reason we (your average, every day citizens) put up with this is ignorance; oh, and money.
Dougie
my bad. I was mistaken. but not that far off in my opinion..
You can work for improvements toward a better system without trying to jump to the perfect system all at once. The first step is required recording in all jurisdictions.
GIS is happening whether surveyors like the way it happens or not. The current fight is to keep GIS distances from (insanely) overruling on-the-ground surveys. That will get fixed after some court cases proving how badly it messed some people up. But GIS could become more useful to surveyors if it is implemented well. Get the cities/counties to spend a little to collect good coordinates on the corners of every block so those nasty mismatches of several feet get corrected. Make it a requirement that the GIS be updated from every on-the-ground survey.
Some day the title system may be more closely tied to GIS, so that when you click on a parcel, all the (recorded) deeds and surveys for that parcel back to some date are listed. Get those for the adjoiners with a few more clicks. That would be helpful.
Bill93, post: 326497, member: 87 wrote: ...Some day the title system may be more closely tied to GIS, so that when you click on a parcel, all the (recorded) deeds and surveys for that parcel back to some date are listed. Get those for the adjoiners with a few more clicks. That would be helpful.
I bet it's been 10 years ago or longer since I first saw it, but Kay County, Oklahoma has a tremendous setup.
One monitor tied to aerial overlay, assessor and county clerk. Just find your parcel, click on it and all the fodder pops up, including present and past conveyance records. At that time you still had to write the book and page down to get a hard copy. It might have changed by now.
However, the one thing that allowed the county to implement this system was the sparse population up there. Trying to do perform such a setup in a densely populated area would be a challenge.
One way might be:
A land registration system invented by Robert Torrens and in which the government is the keeper of the master record of all land and their owners. In the Torrens system, a land title certificate suffices to show full, valid and indefeasible title.
A county several counties east of my county, had a Torrens system years and years ago but gave it up for the current deed type registration. I think it proved too expensive for their taste. I think the Torrens system is active in more than a few countries in the world.
Bill93, post: 326497, member: 87 wrote:
Some day the title system may be more closely tied to GIS, so that when you click on a parcel, all the (recorded) deeds and surveys for that parcel back to some date are listed. Get those for the adjoiners with a few more clicks. That would be helpful.
It's been years since I've done any land records research from anywhere but my desk.
"why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen?"
The answer to that involves politics to get it fixed, all I will say is that if it were possible to apply as much to fixing the things wrong as they do to keeping everything the same, that would be great.
B-)
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 326429, member: 6939 wrote: I was reading the other day in the July 2015 issue xyHt magazine an article about Seniority of Title and Forward Search. Apparently this is going to be a series on common research mistakes that surveyors make. Just in this first article, it goes into the various ways courts have to use to determine who title is superior when there are multiple deeds on the same property. It also speaks to the importance of searching forward in the chain of title from every grantor in the chain to the present because apparently grantors can record transactions they have made in the past at any time (including long after they have sold their interests).
My question is, why do we tolerate such a bad land registration system in the United States that allows stuff like this to happen? Should the surveying community lobby for something better?
Pretty easy answer. MONEY, no money. Nobody really cares enough to provide the money for the resources needed to make it a good system.
Then the vested interest of the title and title insurance industry would be gored badly if they actually fixed the issue. Their services wouldn't really be needed much anymore. In some ways in the long run it would probably reduce the need for surveyors also. Once it was all done (if done correctly) there would be little need to land surveying anymore, the record coordinates would just get you there. Doing the work to get this all done would be nice though.
Money and politics are only part of the problem. Education is a third spoke in that wheel. How many people lack the fundamental understanding that every measurement contains error?
James Fleming, post: 326501, member: 136 wrote: It's been years since I've done any land records research from anywhere but my desk.
OHHHHH, this can be DANGEROUS!!
IF the data is not current, you have a problem. This is basically a digital tax map and probably carries the standard "do not use" disclaimer. It gives the "current owner " name, but where's the title info, like Deed Book and Page??
This kind of data is a good starting point and planning tool, but that's it. This does not constitute even a small part of "due diligence".
You'd be surprised at the errors I have encountered using these types of sites. ALL this thing tells you really is who paid taxes on it last time. What if it sold last week and that's why your client wants a survey. (A LOT of people do ex post facto surveys for some odd reason.
cptdent, post: 327012, member: 527 wrote: OHHHHH, this can be DANGEROUS!!
IF the data is not current, you have a problem. This is basically a digital tax map and probably carries the standard "do not use" disclaimer. It gives the "current owner " name, but where's the title info, like Deed Book and Page??
This kind of data is a good starting point and planning tool, but that's it. This does not constitute even a small part of "due diligence".
You'd be surprised at the errors I have encountered using these types of sites. ALL this thing tells you really is who paid taxes on it last time. What if it sold last week and that's why your client wants a survey. (A LOT of people do ex post facto surveys for some odd reason.
A lot depends on the site. Some are tied directly to the Assessors and Recorders database. It's the same as sitting in the Courthouse. Others are simply overlays of several public domain datasets and yes, they are dangerous. Know which one you are looking at..
