Make a living around here and land some projects?
Hows business in your neck of the woods? I have been really slow here! Very few boundary surveys are coming in. The only real estate moving are foreclosures. Practically the only work to go after here right now is municipally funded projects as a sub contractor to the prime. However, myself and several other local firms keep getting undercut on construction staking by two low-baller firms! One is a brand new company made up of a few guys that got laid off elsewhere. The other firm been around for 7-8 years. The pricing they are bidding is freakin crazy! Here is Just one example:
I recently did a proposal (municiplly funded project)for a stakeout job with a bunch of curbing, roadway, sidewalks, about 250 storm structures, ponds, etc. Long story short, I figured it was about 100 days of field work (if everything went smooth)and about 40 hours of calcs and drafting asbuilts. I really need work badly, so I submitted a proposal for $50k (what I thought was a low ball estimate). There were a total of 5 bidders. Here are the numbers (rounded to nearest $1,000) that were submitted from high to low:
$68,000.00 (no idea which firm)
$60,000.00 (no idea which firm)
$55,000.00 (This surveyor did the design survey and has all the control)
$50,000.00 (my so called Low balling estimate, LOL)
$20,000.00 (the winning "Low-Baller"
$20k!!!!!!!!!!!!! That,s right, I said $20k! I have been surveying for 32 years now, 23 of which I have been licensed. I reviewed the plans and specs for several days and know there is a good 100 days of field work for this job, no bout a doubt it! Because I need the work so badly, I bid the job for $500 a day for the 100 field days and threw in the office time, just so I could generate SOME income. If my estimate of man hours is correct, the low bidder went in at $200 a day!!!!!!!!!!!!
My rates are normally $95 an hour for field time (me, my truck, robot and GPS) and $75 an hour for my office time, both of which are cheaper than most of my competition. I can still make a profit at $75/field, $50/office. My break even is $50/field and $25/office (and even that includes paying myself a small salary). I am a lean, mean surveying machine! All my equipment, including my truck is paid for. My office is a 650 sq. ft. studio above my garage (no rent or utilities). I am operating with as little overhead as possible. My biggest overhead cost is fuel and insurance. I carry both of the required general/professional liability insurance coverage (mandatory when working on municiple projects), workmans comp, and I have my Robot and GPS insured for total replacement. As a solo operator, you have to insure those two pieces of equipment, because there loss would shut down my operation!
Anyway, I don't know what to do! My plummer charges me $95/hour, plus a minimum trip charge of $125. My auto mechanic charges me $85/hour (that is with my friends and family discount, he normally charges $95). Why can't I get that for surveying?
Just wanted to rant a little and hear some possitive(if possible) feed back. Being a solo gig, I have no other surveyors to talk with. And my wife is sick and tired of hearing about it.
Thanks
Steve
it is the same all over man. we have a small stream of good work from good paying clients. other than that our work is real hit or miss. we will win some projects that i don't think we stand a chance on and then we will loose some that i think are slam dunks. people are hungry and willing to work for a fraction of what it is worth right now. that 20K may take that guy 6 months to earn but i'll bet he sees $200 a day better than $0 per day.
hang in there. it is bound to get better, or we will all starve together.
Could be that the $20,000 man regrets leaving $29,999 on the table so much that he backs out. At the very least, he is going to be resentful. Give it 2 weeks, then call up the contractor to see how it's going. There may be an opportunity to pick up some of the slack.
> >... Anyway, I don't know what to do! My plummer charges me $95/hour, plus a minimum trip charge of $125. My auto mechanic charges me $85/hour (that is with my friends and family discount, he normally charges $95). Why can't I get that for surveying?
> Just wanted to rant a little and hear some possitive(if possible) feed back. Being a solo gig, I have no other surveyors to talk with. And my wife is sick and tired of hearing about it.
> Thanks
> Steve
Steve, a point I don't think enough of us realize here when discussing this subject is the numbers involved. For instance, there are FAR more public demands for, say, plumbing and auto machanic services than for land surveying services. On the other hand, you have to consider how MANY MORE plumbers and mechanics there are out there competing for that kind of work as opposed to surveyors competing for surveying jobs. It then becomes more relative. Really, there's just a fact that more and more people in this world are competing for fewer less readily available resources. Everyone's best hope, in the coming future, is going to be their ability to diversify as to how they support their selves economically. On line GIS mapping has hurt my business. But, no one can stop me from growing a lot the food we consume.
The times they have-a-changed.
Take care,
Ed
EMPLOY MONKEY AND GET FLEAS....
Imagine If U had won? The $68K would have said lowballer! LOL
I do not understand how some clients can accept a stand out low figure.
I can not see how the surveyor who was initially involved how he/she did not win the job on the grounds, better the devil you know theory.
The small difference with the %55k between your lower fee and amortized across the job is chicken feed.
Make sure you drop by the job site and speak with the rod man and tell him to tell his boss that he dropped $30K in his eagerness to win.
RADU
Maybe he plans on charging $2,000 a stake for every stake he re-stakes, or if it wasn't in the contract, LOL 😉
Like Snoop, I've got a couple good clients that realize what a good surveyor is worth plus a few that send me clients that would rather go with a referral, than a low-baller.
Hang in there Steve, it is going to get better.
Cheers,
Dugger
Was it West Coast Consultants/ Rick Wilson Constrution layout that threw out that 20K bid? He is unlicensed in case you didn't know.
I FEEL YOUR PAIN RICK--
HE MAY RECAPTURE MOST OF HIS LOSSES ON RESTAKES AND OTHER EXCUSES, LIKE TRUCKS IN THE WAY, GROUND NOT READY ETC--REMEMBER THESE LOWBALLERS KNOW HOW TO WRITE CONTRACTS--TDD
In Florida, you don't always have to be licensed to do construction lay-out ... sad but true. But I doubt a government agency would allow the hiring of an unlicensed company, especially if as-builts and insurance requirements are involved. Although, sometimes they sneak through the backdoor as a sub to the engineer or contractor. If that's the case, it may be worth pointing out to the city. I've had some success with that approach.
What surprises me most, is that in some cases, when we ask "does this company meet the insurance requirements?", we'll get a response like, "they are a sub to the engineer so they are covered by his insurance". It really doesn't make sense that there is an insurance requirement, and several of the bidders meet that requirement, but a non-professional gets a waiver? Besides, I seriously doubt the engineer's insurance is going to cover a 3rd party individual or company ...
What are you doing in your community to let people know you are out there and ready to go? Have you ever sponsored a small lunch for a construction company to talk with them about how you are more efficient that your competition? Have you ever offered to talk to a real estate firm's monthly sales meeting about the effect not having a survey made for a transaction can have? Have you every volunteered some time to the high school geometry teacher/church group/scout troop to show what we do?
Get out there!!
No, it was not that firm.
Workin Man
No it was not West Coast Consultants
to: "The Pseudo Ranger"
Pseudo
The Company in question has a Licensed surveyor "on staff". However, if my detective work is correct, the licensed guy only bids the work and signs the surveys from some "out-of-state" location. He has a Florida license but doesn't live here. I believe the other two guys that form the company are a local party chief and an I-man. That is about all I know. I do know the contractor doing the project and believe you me, I will be monitoring this throughout the duration of the project! This hasn't been the first job I have lost to this company!
to: "JB"
JB
All of your idea's are brilliant! My answer to most of them is "No I haven't". Shame on me! I have volunteered for my local Chapter of FSMS to man a booth at several career fairs at the local colleges and vo-tech. But I have never even considered marketing my services that way!
Most of my work has come from clients I have known for many years. I have been surveying in my area for well over 30 years and know most of the players. However these times do call for desperate measures. I guess I have taken it for granted that I am a well known and respected surveyor here locally and in the past I have never had to worry about where the next project is coming from. I can no longer assume this! When you are "out of site" you truly are "out of mind"! And the players are changing constantly!
JB, Thanks for the boot in the ass! Now you got me thinking!
Workin Man
Wow, there is more than 1 company out there scamming their clients?
Workin Man
I am happy to give you the "boot". So many of us sit around waiting for the phone to ring, wait until it's too late sadly. You must engage. That scout troop you help out with their engineering badge just may have a leader who's in charge of the real estate section of a law firm. That architect's society that you spoke to may never even have thought how useful we can be to them.
Talk to the guy in your local surveying society who's responsible to book the speakers for your meetings. He will tell you that it is an absolute Godsend for someone to call up and offer to speak, now he doesn't have to hunt someone down. It's the same for any other society. They will book you instantly. I have a 20 minute spiel that I use to get the ball rolling and then I just start fielding questions which usually leads to some lights coming on in the audience. Try it, it's actually fun. You will become the go-to-guy in your area.
I would also like to recommend a book, The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. A VERY easy read. It will blow you away when he gets you to take a hard look at who you are (technician, entrepreneur, manager) and what you can become if those different people in you are in balance. If nothing else he will show how, by modeling your business (even a one man show like you and I) after that of a franchise, you can begin to work more ON your business than IN you business. Check it out.
to: "JB"
Also:
Are you a member of the state land title association? If so, have you written a short article for their newsletter on the changes to the survey standards?
Are you a member of the local builders association? If so, are you on any of the committees that track land use regulations?
Do any of the local development regulatory agencies (planning, etc.) have "outreach" meetings to discuss regulation implementation? If so, do you attend?
You probably see the drift. A few other ideas
There are also a lot of websites, blogs, and a few good books on both professional services marketing and AEC marketing - a google search will turn up hundreds. A few organizations like Design and Construction Network put on regular get-togethers after work. I'm heading to one in Baltimore today that will have over 100 people there (about 50% are developers, architects, engineers without in house surveying and land use attorneys).
On other thing I found really helpful was putting together a group of a few guys who are also solo - NO other surveyors. A PE, architect and land planner and I get together for lunch every few months just to talk business, gossip, etc. When any on us has a line on a project, we basically have a multi-disciplinary design firm ready to go.
Feel free to think big. I'm solo and most of my work over the last year has been subdivision plats and easements for the first phase of a 250 lot development. I can remember when a project that size would have scared off a 15 person firm, but I'm pretty CAD proficient and doing that level of work is no problem for me.
Try and specialize. Who makes a better living, the local GP or the guy who does heart transplants. It drives my wife crazy, but I'll turn down guaranteed money from small lot surveys to take potential bigger clients out to lunch (and I'll refer the small stuff to the guys I don't want taking my clients out to lunch 😉 )
Workin Man
You are an inspiration to us all JB, thank you for posting here.
The big engineering company I worked for 8+ years ago sent me to something called Participatory Culture. It was the best 5 days of my career. We went for 3 days, then waited 2 weeks and then the last 2. I was middle management and about the middle income of the 25 people there from our company. I made about 65k a year then. It was at the Tacoma Club at the top of the Wells Fargo building in downtown Tacoma. This was the 6th time the company had done this.
I had the chance, at lunch one day, to sit across the table from the CEO of the company. We were an employee owned company and I was fully vested. I told him that I didn't want to know what the cost was, but if it was justified. He said, Doug, I can't show you on paper, but this is the main reason our stock value rose 14% last year. I said thank you Gerry, that's all I needed to hear.
A positive attitude can take you a long way.
Douglas Casement
> Make a living around here and land some projects?
Surely, not by buying the work or selling yourself out.
> Hows business in your neck of the woods?
You're in my neck of the woods. When I was motivated, I considered all of Florida my neck of the woods. These days, we share SW Florida...and business has sucked since '07 when the bubble popped. We knew that every laid off crew chief could possibly become competition, but with no pie to slice up it didn't matter...and still doesn't.
> I recently did a proposal (municiplly funded project)for a stakeout job with a bunch of curbing, roadway, sidewalks, about 250 storm structures, ponds, etc. Long story short, I figured it was about 100 days of field work (if everything went smooth)and about 40 hours of calcs and drafting asbuilts. I really need work badly, so I submitted a proposal for $50k (what I thought was a low ball estimate).
$50K for 100 days in the field and a week in the office! WTF!!! If in fact it would have taken us that long to do the work, we wouldn't have bid less than $90K.
Yes times are tough but hopefully you saved enough during the last feast to make it while these scabs get weeded out. Just keep treading water and for crying out loud charge a reasonable fee for your work.
Be. A Barracus......
You are in my neck of the woods? Do you know me or do I know you?
