We are about to become professionals in Georgia Y'all

Interesting...we had a two tiered license for years in Maryland and got rid of it in the early 90's.?ÿ ?ÿ

Very good. Has been a long time coming. The two tiers is a compromise to resolve a few issues. A well done to the SAMSOG Legislative Committee.

Several years ago in FL Surveyors were kicked out of the ƒ??Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulationƒ? into the ƒ??Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Serviceƒ?.?ÿ Now we are called ƒ??Professional Surveyors and Mappersƒ?. ?ÿThis initiated because of ƒ??Budget Cutsƒ?. Go figure?

Prior to that they wanted to deregulate the Surveying Profession altogether, it didnƒ??t work.?ÿ ??ÿ

Although I never practice in GA my license is current so I'm now a Professional Land Surveyor. Oh goodie.?ÿ ??ÿ

Being called "Professional" is part of the growing process.

Mostly it is being recognized from the multitude of people that say they know something about land surveying.

I can understand requiring some education on hydrology as when I need to compute some flow the books come out and the schooling starts over. In the last 40yrs I have done 3 flow studies. First was to size culverts along a roadway and the other 2 were for the same lake to evaluate the possibility of a dam breach. Having a personal interest in the lake, I did not mind the effort.

Hydrology is an engineering study. Here in PA a PLS can do minor road, sewer and stormwater design along with soil Erosion and Sediment Control plans. What are the details of the two tier system? Separate exam, license more fees, etc.?

There is a field called Engineering Land Surveys, which covers the above and in turn allows a PE to do any field work as apart of that study. Surveyors are allowed to do minor land planning, 3 lots, no new roads and no major extension of utilities, but not well codified.

It is included in the PA portion of the Exam, and a lot of continuing education applies to both professions.

Paul in PA, PE, PLS

In Georgia we can design roads, sewers, waterlines inncedental to a subdivision. There is a hydrology exam. It has a low pass rate. A lot feel this is a barrier for people getting licensed and that most people will never use it. There are still a lot of rural areas in Georgia where those surveyors use this. We can also prepare erosion control plans under a different test that engineers take also. I got my E & S certification years ago but let it lapse because there was no money in it for everything that was involved.

Wellƒ??.I will say this with the utmost confidence that this will not solve a damned thing concerning the declining numbers of surveyors in the state.

It was not many years ago that the leaders of the Surveying and Mapping Society of Georgia SAMSOG and some of the self-appointed leaders who seemed to think they were the voice for the rest of the surveyors were wailing and wringing their hands in pitiful anguish over the state of affairs of surveying in the state and they went on a full court press trying to get a 4-year degree. This 4-year degree they insisted was necessary to keep us in line with the surrounding states. How can we allow Alabama to have higher standards than us here in Georgia? Oh, the horror and shame of it all, Alabama, Florida & I believe South Carolina require 4-year degrees so by golly Georgia had to follow suit.

And I remember saying at the time that it is not about the level of education but rather about the money. Who in their right mind would go to college for 4 years to make the pitiful wages that surveyors make here? Who wants to take higher level math and composition classes and cut line in 95-degree heat and make $12 and hour working on a crew?

I also remember being told by one of the Society members that since I refused to get in line and march to the beat of SAMSOG's drum that I had nothing good to contribute to SAMSOG and I should just get out. I did, and I remain so.

So fast forward a decade and these same Brainiac's living in their own little bubble of make believe have become alarmed that only 2 people sat for the survey exam last year. Oh, the shock and awe was heard throughout the state.

So now they have decided to lower the standards. They can parse it any way they want but that is what they have done, and it wonƒ??t solve a bloody thing.

Ironically the funny thing is that in principle I agree with what they have done I just disagree that it will solve anything. Lowering the standards and bringing more surveyors into the fold will not raise wages. In order to attract more people they have to know that there is some reward for the risk and I'm telling ya people can make more money elsewhere without working themselves to death.

There was a great and wise Greek Philosopher once by the name of Kevin Costner and he spoke these words a millennium ago and they are as true now as they were then. ƒ??Pay them and they will comeƒ?.

Feeƒ??s must rise, the costs for surveying services must rise and they must rise a lot & and wages must rise, a lot. Now they might be ƒ??closeƒ? to where they need to be in Atlanta, but they are sub-par at best away from the big city.

Until wages rise they could give licenses away and nobody would want to be a surveyorƒ??..in Georgia. And incidentally if this doesn't solve the problem I expect they will give licenses away to every Civil Engineer in the state who wants one.

I am not quite sure how removing Hydrology from the requirements when many municipalities will not accept a Hydrology Report from a Surveyor is lowering the Standards. In fact, I have not found how knowledge of Hydrology is very useful in performing boundary surveys. My understanding is that not only in Georgia but everywhere in the world there is less interest in work that involves getting dirty and sweating. Unfortunately, the Public does not see Surveyors as Professionals. I contend that the main reason for this is the business practices of our fellow Surveyors. Until the majority recognizes that we are providing Professional Services, the Public will treat us as a commodity. ?ÿYou are right in that just changing our name is not going to make it happen. ?ÿWe as a Profession need to take a hard look in the mirror and realize the main problem is not the Engineers or even the GIS Folks. The problem is that many Surveyors will either give their work away or perform a half-A$$ job and steal from the Public. ?ÿThe State is not sufficiently interested in effectively regulating our Profession. If it is going to happen, we are going to have to do it.

Imbrls, It is effectively lowering the standards because the Hydrology test is seen as an impediment or barrier to getting licensed as a surveyor, it has been a hurdle that a lot have been unable to get over and a lot of folks see it as preventing people from getting registered.

It was not a difficult test at all but again a lot of people in prominent positions feel like it prevents folks who might otherwise be able to pass from doing so.?ÿ That is the reason I say they are lowering the standards. You know if the test is too hard lets just change the test and make it easier.

And I maintain that it will do nothing to alter the problems facing surveyors in Georgia. The recession drove a lot of people out of the business. These were rodman, instrument operators, party chiefs, drafters, and rls's. Those folks are not coming back.

I feel like what is going on is that the costs for surveying services are just beginning to rise a little and we can't have that. I would wager a dollar that the real estate lobby or architects' or engineers are bitching and whining that the costs for surveys are going up (as they need to) so they are putting pressure on the board.

I do not disagree with removing Hydrology from the survey exam. I just disagree that it is a viable solution. The solution to attracting more people is money. Show me the money.

Lowering the testing standards does nothing about raising the value of our service in the public eye much less in the eyes of those who give our work product away like a chicken bisquit.

The costs for surveying services has a long damned way to go before they get close to where they should be and now the board wants to change the test so those who cannot pass will be able to. It is all about the money and I personally know 4 people who have passed the LSIT and they have zero interest in getting their license because there is no value in it. It costs a lot of money to set up a surveying business and the money is just not there.

Wages might be better in the big city but not everyone wants to live or work in Atlanta.?ÿ

I studied my ass off to pass the hydro exam and get my GA license and I have a 2 bachelors degrees one of which is geomatics. So yeah I spent a good bit of time working towards my license. Why anyone would want to take down a barrier to entry is beyond me. ?ÿIf a person canƒ??t study and ?ÿpass the hydro exam and the law portion (which was ridiculously easy) then they donƒ??t deserve the license. ?ÿI have my doubts that said person would be the kind of surveyor that I would want to go behind ?ÿmuch less compete with.?ÿ

?ÿDoes anyone actually think that we can grow the number of licensees to the point of having a viable lobby before everyone cuts each otherƒ??s throat on pricing due to the increased competition??ÿ

SWAG, Exactly right....you can be sure that it will be a race to the bottom.......yet again. As I commented I suspect someone or some group, real estate lobby, architects, engineers, are pressuring the board members to do this. And as I commented I don't have any real objection to it but it does nothing to raise the level of importance of surveying.

There are many things that could be done to increase our value, one of which is require every deed that references a survey for that survey to be of public record.

As I said this will not solve anything. It may allow a few folks to become licensed who have been at it for many years and can't seem to get past the Hydrology exam but it won't mean much. The money is just not here. It is hard damned work for a bunch of ungrateful jackasses who look for the cheapest service and don't give a damn about their property until they suspect something might be wrong and then they raise holy hell and drag you into a lawsuit for something they could have prevented if they had gotten a survey first instead of last.

Nobody wants to go to school for 4 years and incur $100k of student loan debt to make $15 and hour chopping line in 95 degree heat. Hell they don't want to do it for $25 an hour.

What this will probably do is allow the engineers who don't know a damned thing about surveying to become a surveyor & basically rubber stamp anything that comes across their desk because you know they will not be out in the field. It is too much work for an engineer to do. I mean they would have to take off their Dockers, khakis, and tie and actually do some work.

Steve,

We are in agreement about recording requirements. This should have been done years ago.?ÿ

Removing Hydrology from the exam has been proposed by the Survey Community for many years. Although I am sure this will not hurt the Engineer's feeling, the proposal came from SAMSOG. The real estate lobby, engineers and architects are not our biggest problem. It is the low ball/low value surveyor that is driving prices to the bottom. No one holds a gun to our head and makes us do a cheap survey.

You are right in that most people are afraid to get their hands dirty these days. This is a problem not just in surveying.?ÿ

We keep talking a good bit about the problems and very little about solutions.

P.S. SWAG is correct. the Legal portion of the exam is a joke. When I took the test in 94, there was not one question on the Land Lot System.

I hesitated in posting this, as I can see there are some strong opinions against dropping the hydrology requirement.?ÿ

For those that are opposed, I would like to ask what suggestions you?ÿhave for those who are unable to sit in a classroom for a semester to?ÿattend?ÿthe hydrology course(s) required to get approved to sit for the exam.?ÿ The state of Georgia no longer?ÿoffers any type of distance learning opportunity in hydrology at any of the colleges.?ÿ I have my B.S. in Geomatics and am currently licensed in 2 states.?ÿ However, hydrology was not a part of the curriculum for the state in which I obtained my degree.?ÿ I have no issue with studying for and passing the hydrology exam, but the requirements to do so prevent me from being able to. Additionally, I have spoken to many individuals, including an engineer who reviews the questions that are?ÿon the hydrology exam.?ÿI have been told repeatedly that I would be wasting my time and money to attempt the?ÿexam with no formal instruction in hydrology (much less hydrology that is specific to the state of Georgia), even if I were to be approved to sit for the exam.

I live about 15 minutes from the Georgia state line.?ÿ I have no intent to ever do any type of design work, which is what the hydrology portion allows surveyors to do in the state of Georgia.?ÿ I do, however, wish to be able to perform the same surveying services that I currently provide in 2 other states?ÿfor those in my area who happen to be across the state line. I?ÿunderstand the fear of being overrun with "lowball" surveyors if the requirements are changed. However, if you look at the number of individuals that have obtained licensure in the last 2-3 years, it is obvious that it won't be too many years before the?ÿdemand will?ÿfar exceed the number of individuals who are able to meet that demand.?ÿ?ÿWhen it gets to that point, the state will have no choice but to take drastic measures and then the fear of being overrun with "lowball" surveyors will become reality. Perhaps the solution would be for the state board to insure that they are providing?ÿways for individuals to?ÿmeet the requirements that they have set.

In no way do I intend this post to be confrontational and will not respond to anyone who attempts to challenge that.?ÿ I am only providing a different point of view for those who may only be looking at this situation from their point of view, and am sincerely asking for suggestions.?ÿ

Thanks in advance for any advice or input on this matter.

?ÿ

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I would like to ask what suggestions you?ÿhave for those who are unable to sit in a classroom for a semester to?ÿattend?ÿthe hydrology course(s) required to get approved to sit for the exam.

A semester??ÿ Are they giving licenses away in Georgia? ??ÿ

Maryland's requirement is four semesters (with six months of verifiable experience in design counting as one semester).

Posted by: landerson

I would like to ask what suggestions you?ÿhave for those who are unable to sit in a classroom for a semester

Distance ed? Surely there are options for distance ed or commuter campus courses to cover this?

I have no problem with someone taking hydro classes and being approved for the exam. What I do have a problem with is the attitude of "here's your license for XX years of participation and passing a dumbed down test". Im not sure if an engineering hydrology course would satisfy the requirements as I took hydrology for surveyors. While the hydro exam was definitely tougher than the legal portion, I would think that someone with a basic hydro course could pass it if they put in their time.

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I have no doubt that I will incur some wrath but SAMSOG has done nothing for surveyors except collect fee's. If they are responsible for this bill then I can only laugh because it wasn't too long ago that they were crying like a bunch of babies about needing a 4 year degree.?ÿ

No wrath, but you are just ignorant of what SAMSOG HAS done.?ÿ I have not been a member for several years but I DO know that our Legislative Committee and our Lobbyist saved a LOT of detrimental legislation from proceeding.

Andy

Posted by: Andy Bruner

No wrath, but you are just ignorant of what SAMSOG HAS done.?ÿ I have not been a member for several years but I DO know that our Legislative Committee and our Lobbyist saved a LOT of detrimental legislation from proceeding.

Andy

Great point.

ƒ??It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.ƒ? --Calvin Coolidge