I could see records having tremendous value, but the catch is someone would need to know how to quickly query them to find what's needed and indexing would only be the start. My records are all entered into a GIS system so I can quickly pick up on control in an area from a survey I did years ago to get off to a quick start on a new project, within minutes. The ties to monuments that are no longer there has proven to be invaluable for me in the past. For another surveyor to find any value at all in my records at all he would need to understand how they are designed to work because without the key in the GIS indexing system, they're just a bunch of paper and electronic files of little use to anyone. How the data is managed is what gives it value IMHO.
My former company owned a massive amount of unrecorded plats in northwestern NC. I asked the county registrar if they would be interested in scanning any of them, at no cost, and they said "no!"
Idiots. The world is full of idiots.
Williwaw, post: 370308, member: 7066 wrote: I could see records having tremendous value, but the catch is someone would need to know how to quickly query them to find what's needed and indexing would only be the start. My records are all entered into a GIS system so I can quickly pick up on control in an area from a survey I did years ago to get off to a quick start on a new project, within minutes. The ties to monuments that are no longer there has proven to be invaluable for me in the past. For another surveyor to find any value at all in my records at all he would need to understand how they are designed to work because without the key in the GIS indexing system, they're just a bunch of paper and electronic files of little use to anyone. How the data is managed is what gives it value IMHO.
This guy has done a great job of indexing his records (as mentioned before). I still cannot fathom the term "worthless" and "records" being tossed around like it is. I know my records have HUGE value to me. It would take thousands of thousands of dollars to recreate them.
hlbennettpls, post: 370371, member: 10049 wrote: ....I still cannot fathom the term "worthless" and "records" being tossed around like it is....It would take thousands of thousands of dollars to recreate them.
I have seen corner references from 1947 at the intersection of two dirt county roads; and nowadays it is a highway interchange. NOTHING on that record actually still exists. If there is no other info on the record that can be identified, it does have little value. But I agree that no records are actually worthless. Probably a more descriptive term could be "rarely viewed or utilized".
Their value in a monetary sense is similar to a 100' stretch of å?" rope. It's $7.99 down the street at Ace Hardware, in a pickle on top of Mt. Everest it's a priceless lifesaver.
I have worked at a number of long established and old school firms that have vast records; some over 100 years old. It was practice to routinely check the records when putting together a job. More often than not there was nothing useable. But when there was, it was always a good thing.
hlbennettpls, post: 370289, member: 10049 wrote: If records are worthless, then why do we keep them...?
"We" don't. We record every survey and destroy everything else after 7 years... Old records are nothing but a liability.
The castlenut stone I found recently was one of those times where I had one piece of information suggesting there might be a stone at the center corner. A stone was mentioned on a railroad strip map for a railroad that passed near the stone in 1888.
Old information is precious in my book. Look at everything first. Then start drawing conclusions. Don't make a decision and then discount everything that disagrees with it.
It is sounding like you are the Only possible buyer... think about that long and hard.
I asked what a Bank would loan on the purchase: bankers are smart about Money. This is a business decision!
small town, small business, zero professional staff: the Value is in the Current owner.
Structure it as a payment plan, with him as a Partner with diminishing ownership over the next few years. HE needs to participate in the continued long term success of the business... if this new enterprise Fails he looses his continued income from it.
Jim in AZ, post: 370379, member: 249 wrote: "We" don't. We record every survey and destroy everything else after 7 years... Old records are nothing but a liability.
Two very important points that cause this opinion to be absolutely irrelevant to Tennessee and other states.
1. Tennessee has a 4 year statute of repose. So, 4 years and 1 day after the date of the signature on the plat, your liability is ZERO.
2. Tennessee is not a recording state. The only surveys around here that are recorded is subdivisions that create lots smaller than 5 acres. If I had to guess, I'd say at least 25% of the surveys we do are never recorded, including as a description in a deed. There are thousands of of corners in this county alone of which a description does not exist in the public record.
hlbennettpls, post: 370289, member: 10049 wrote: If records are worthless, then why do we keep them...?
My only reason is this:
Florida Statutes
Standards of Practice ÛÒ Professional Matters in Surveying and Mapping.
5J-17.053- 3.(5)(a)
(5) Retention of Work Products.
(a) For each survey produced, all licensees, except for those who do not have an ownership right to the work product, shall maintain for a minimum of six years from the date of creation at least one copy of all signed and sealed final drawings, plans, specifications, plats, and reports as well as one copy of all related calculations and field notes. These records may be kept in hard copy or electronic or digital format.
I just do production housing so my records are worthless to Fl. surveyors. B-)
If you are in a recording state, most or all of the records are of surveys that occurred after the recording law was enacted and the owner was good about compliance with that law, the value of the records is much more limited than if they reflected a lot of unfiled work. In either case, they aren't worthless as there is almost always a good base of research for projects, and often useful info regarding proprietary control which may still exist in several areas.
But even if all or much of the records are for work that is not reflected on filed maps, the business value is almost never high enough to justify the price the owner thinks they are worth. Storing and maintaining a records collection has costs associated with it. Even if you are able to charge for copies provided to other surveyors or the occasional landowner, both groups tend to resent having to pay anything more than a nominal copy fee, as if you were an OfficeMax or Kinko's.
Although CA has been a recording state since 1891, there are several areas in the state where compliance with recording laws wasn't very good until the 1970s, with a few scattered counties not having good compliance rates until the mid 1980s. In one such area, the real estate is among the most expensive in the nation and the original surveys for most parcels occurred between the 1890s and the 1960s, with very few maps other than for larger subdivisions having been recorded. Even the old recorded subdivision maps failed to show such trivial info as the original lot corner monuments. In nearly all cases, redwood hubs were set as lot corners and still exist. In some neighborhoods, it is virtually impossible to do a proper boundary survey without having obtained whatever records are available of the unfiled work done there decades ago.
A few surveyors have recognized the great value of those old records to being able to properly identify original boundaries while also recognizing the limited business value of those records. In some cases, they've been given the records of some retired or dead surveyor, but in most cases have spent several thousand for them, organized or not. These surveyors typically charge between $50 and $150 as an access fee plus the hourly rate of a tech to assist and make copies, and fees for copies ranging from a few dollars to a few hundred, depending upon the type and condition of the original record, and relative value of the info contained. Before getting indignant about those fees, consider that most of the landowners in these areas are multimillionaires or greater. One of the lots I'm aware of in the area (50'x170', 85' elevation diff across lot, with a tear-down house on it) sold for $4.5 million. If someone is willing and able to pay several million for a postage stamp lot that couldn't be given away if it were in another area, then an extra $300 to $1000 in research fees to ensure their surveyor has all the records to correctly locate the boundary on their $500+/s.f. property shouldn't bother them in the slightest.
Back to the point I was going to make... Even charging fees that cover the costs of an employee's time to assist and make copies and that assign some value to the records themselves, none of the surveyors who own those collections even fully recoups the costs of indexing, storing, and maintaining the records. There may be one or two who think that they are cornering the market in a particular area by having most of the records of early surveys in that area, but I think that advantage is primarily in their imagination. So many surveyors will refuse to pay anything more than the price of a decent lunch for any kind of records, and make that decision without consulting with their client about the potential costs. Most just find some chunk of metal or wood in the vicinity of where a corner should be, accept it without question, find a second one and proceed to stake out 130 year old record bearings and distances from those two points and call anything else they find to be off. It's not only difficult to recoup your investment when that sloppy attitude is widespread, it's also difficult to compete while trying to do the job right.
Peter is correct that aside from the value of any equipment & supplies, the primary business value will be in the reputation and assistance of the current owner over a period of years. Although the records may have extremely high value for the purpose of protecting property rights established according to original boundary locations, those who would benefit most, and many of those who purport to serve them by claiming to locate boundaries will never recognize that value. If you pay anything more than about $1000 per decade of well kept records of a small company, you will be doing so only as a service to the true beneficiaries of those records, but won't be doing so as a sound business decision.
Except for a few copies I've picked up here & there in connection with particular projects, I don't own such records, really appreciate when the owner of such records is willing to share them for free or for some nominal cost, but in no way begrudge those who do charge significant fees. If not for those who are willing to buy or otherwise receive records of retired or deceased surveyors, those records are likely to be lost to all forever through a trip to the dump or the backyard burn bin. If the surveys those records represent are reflected on filed maps, it's not such a great loss, but a loss of potentially helpful info nonetheless. If the surveys are not reflected on filed maps and the records represent original surveys or retracements that provide the link between original monuments and what may exist today, such a loss is a travesty.
hlbennettpls, post: 370065, member: 10049 wrote: Got offered to buy a small "mom & pop" surveying firm that's been established for 30+ years. Very reputable, has done good work both public and private. Has some older equipment, which isn't of much value, but has a TON of records. How does one go about valuing the records of this business? It easily covers 10 counties and they've averaged 300 survey jobs a year (roughly) for 30+ years. I'm trying to figure out if what they are asking is a good price or not and trying to do my due diligence. Anyone ever dealt with this? Thanks.
1) Old equipment, few employees and a lot of records......so what exactly are you buying? Is the owner going to stay on board as an employee during a 1-2 year transition period or if he just going to fly to walk off into the sunset? If he is simply leaving....they better be pulling in 20%+ profit.
2) Are the employees staying onboard? I was involved in a buyout (being employed by the firm that was bought out). 5 of the 7 employees made the transition to the new firm and in less than 1 month we all left....so what did they buy besides some equipment and records? Sure, you eliminated a competitor, but he might of eliminated himself for you if he just closed the doors.
3) What is their annual income and profit for the last 5 years? As someone else pointed out, if they aren't making a decent profit(higher is better but certainly dont go below 10%) then your just throwing money away.
4) I dont know how things work in a non-recording state but how are the records of a surveyor you had no knowlege of going to gain you an advantage? Surely you would have to repeat whatever work you will be in responsible charge of.
I know this surveyor quite well, we've worked in the same town for quite some time. I'll tell you this about his records. There was a right of way project he didn't want to deal with, but knew I had some experience in the matter. He GAVE me, yes I said GAVE me his "worksheet for the area where the project was, and with that info. I was able to get the project b/c I had about 1% of the records he did in that area. His worksheets identified deed, plat, section corner, right of way issues I'd have had to have found myself through hours and hours of field work and research. Sure, I did my own field work, but with that stuff in my back pocket, I knew just what I was up against. The right of way project was about 2.5 miles long with roughly 40 parcels fronting along the right of way and this surveyor had surveyed easily 90% of the parcels in that area. He is a VERY reputable surveyor, and I respect him quite a bit as he does me. I'm still waiting on the financials to come back, but w/the way the economy is, I'm sure they won't look all that well over the past few years. I do know this, he's survived every downturn since he was in business. I also know this as well, the first time in 40+ years he EVER laid anyone off was in 2009, when he was forced to lay off a 3 man survey crew. I don't know what that says about business savvy or profitability, but IMO that's impressive...
hlbennettpls, post: 370474, member: 10049 wrote: I know this surveyor quite well, we've worked in the same town for quite some time. I'll tell you this about his records. There was a right of way project he didn't want to deal with, but knew I had some experience in the matter. He GAVE me, yes I said GAVE me his "worksheet for the area where the project was, and with that info. I was able to get the project b/c I had about 1% of the records he did in that area. His worksheets identified deed, plat, section corner, right of way issues I'd have had to have found myself through hours and hours of field work and research. Sure, I did my own field work, but with that stuff in my back pocket, I knew just what I was up against. The right of way project was about 2.5 miles long with roughly 40 parcels fronting along the right of way and this surveyor had surveyed easily 90% of the parcels in that area. He is a VERY reputable surveyor, and I respect him quite a bit as he does me. I'm still waiting on the financials to come back, but w/the way the economy is, I'm sure they won't look all that well over the past few years. I do know this, he's survived every downturn since he was in business. I also know this as well, the first time in 40+ years he EVER laid anyone off was in 2009, when he was forced to lay off a 3 man survey crew. I don't know what that says about business savvy or profitability, but IMO that's impressive...
No doubt it is impressive that he has only had to lay off 3 people in 40 years. That tells me he can operate a stable business, but for him to give away work that included 40 parcels of which he already 90% of the work done leads me to believe his profit margins aren't very high or average for that matter. In any business acquisition focus on the numbers, ROI and don't get foggy eyed by the records or equipment. Develop a buy price based on the ROI you need/want and value the records separately and add the two together. I hope it works out for you.
I will say I believe it is very difficult to come up with a value that both parties can agree on when one of them has put their blood, sweat and tears in the business for the majority of their life.
TXSurveyor, post: 370506, member: 6719 wrote: No doubt it is impressive that he has only had to lay off 3 people in 40 years. That tells me he can operate a stable business, but for him to give away work that included 40 parcels of which he already 90% of the work done leads me to believe his profit margins aren't very high or average for that matter. In any business acquisition focus on the numbers, ROI and don't get foggy eyed by the records or equipment. Develop a buy price based on the ROI you need/want and value the records separately and add the two together. I hope it works out for you.
I will say I believe it is very difficult to come up with a value that both parties can agree on when one of them has put their blood, sweat and tears in the business for the majority of their life.
I agree with that last statement 100%.
Something else to consider, someone else might have covered because I haven't read all the post. A portion of the business revenue is from the engineering side which is of no value to you some you don't plan on attempting to continue and a portion of the survey revenue is a direct result of him offering engineering services and picking up the survey work as well, you need to plan on not getting this survey work as well. If the majority of his survey work is supporting his engineering service then you are back to buying records and a phone number.
How long before the EI gets his license? I would consider keeping the current owner on staff for engineering work until the EI gets his license and then offer the new engineer a portion of the company (starting small and percentage continually getting bigger), he has to have skin in the game, if he walks then you lose the engineering side of your firm and that's hard to bounce back from in a small town.
or how will people who need those records know that xxx surveyor has them in his files?
Let's put the shoe on the other foot then. If you were selling your business...how would you value it then if your records are basically "worthless"?
hlbennettpls, post: 373780, member: 10049 wrote: Let's put the shoe on the other foot then. If you were selling your business...how would you value it then if your records are basically "worthless"?
You base the value on the amount of signed contracts on the books, the value of repeat clients and "good will", and most importantly on the value of your employees. Equipment and vehicles may play a small part depending on their age.
This is how a business is valu! Records are worth something, just not much. I think i mentioned worthless in a earlier post which was a poor choice of wording.
hlbennettpls, post: 373780, member: 10049 wrote: Let's put the shoe on the other foot then. If you were selling your business...how would you value it then if your records are basically "worthless"?
Jim in AZ, post: 373799, member: 249 wrote: You base the value on the amount of signed contracts on the books, the value of repeat clients and "good will", and most importantly on the value of your employees. Equipment and vehicles may play a small part depending on their age.
