Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
I can't get a plumber or carpenter to give me a bid in my neck of the woods, especially plumbers.
For relatively small jobs like this, why not take one as a test case and put in what you think is a winning price, win it, do it to to your usual standard, then see how the bottom line stacks up. At least you'll have some runs on the scoreboard.
I disagree 100%. You read the word "bid" and infer that everyone is trying to get the job based solely on cost.?ÿ?ÿ
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If you are providing a bid and thinking you will be selected because you are more knowledgeable than the others you're just kidding yourself.?ÿ The winning bid will be almost always be based on cost if cost is a qualifying factor.?ÿ Your two examples were glaring examples of this. Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
With the exception of Brooks Act work, I really don't know how you think cost could be removed from the equation. Providing someone with an estimate/bid up front is not going away. The problem isn't that we're asked to provide an estimate or a bid up front, the problem is that boundary surveying is generally considered to have a low value in our society. That is NOT the result of bidding or estimating.
You would ask for an estimate from an architect to design your house, from a doctor to perform a boob job, from an accountant to handle your finances...and from a contractor and/or plumber to work on your house. In all of those cases you would perhaps get several estimates and weigh cost against reputation. Neither cut-rate boob jobs or cut-rate plumbing are much of a bargain. Our problem as surveyors is that the value of our services is often perceived as lower than both many professions AND skilled trades. You very well may strictly price shop for snow removal, routine landscaping, tree removal, oil changes, and house painting. As noted above, the public simply cannot distinguish among different levels of survey "quality" and only rarely would they care to do so anyway.
In the rare cases where they do care to discriminate based on quality, they seem happy to pay through the nose (like in?ÿsome of the boundary cases that JBStahl shares). But my understanding is that this is often well after the lawyers have entered the room, so surveying starts to look cheap!
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With the exception of Brooks Act work, I really don't know how you think cost could be removed from the equation. Providing someone with an estimate/bid up front is not going away. The problem isn't that we're asked to provide an estimate or a bid up front, the problem is that boundary surveying is generally considered to have a low value in our society. That is NOT the result of bidding or estimating.
You would ask for an estimate from an architect to design your house, from a doctor to perform a boob job, from an accountant to handle your finances...and from a contractor and/or plumber to work on your house. In all of those cases you would perhaps get several estimates and weigh cost against reputation. Neither cut-rate boob jobs or cut-rate plumbing are much of a bargain. Our problem as surveyors is that the value of our services is often perceived as lower than both many professions AND skilled trades. You very well may strictly price shop for snow removal, routine landscaping, tree removal, oil changes, and house painting. As noted above, the public simply cannot distinguish among different levels of survey "quality" and only rarely would they care to do so anyway.
In the rare cases where they do care to discriminate based on quality, they seem happy to pay through the nose (like in?ÿsome of the boundary cases that JBStahl shares). But my understanding is that this is often well after the lawyers have entered the room, so surveying starts to look cheap!
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Fortunately you are wrong.?ÿ Obviously other areas of the USA run by a different set of rules than around this area. For the majority of our projects over the last 15 years we are selected based on a quality based system.?ÿ Cost is not even discussed, nor can it be, until the consultant is chosen.?ÿ There are RFPs coming out by the dozens on a daily basis that follow this exact criteria.
You made me think of a possible surveying add.?ÿ Put a set of crooked ones on your add and say?ÿ "She picked the lowest price - do you want this to happen to your survey??ÿ Do it right the first time!
I disagree 100%. You read the word "bid" and infer that everyone is trying to get the job based solely on cost.?ÿ?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
If you are providing a bid and thinking you will be selected because you are more knowledgeable than the others you're just kidding yourself.?ÿ The winning bid will be almost always be based on cost if cost is a qualifying factor.?ÿ Your two examples were glaring examples of this. Until us surveyor's stop providing bids we'll continue to be thought of as plumbers and carpenters.
So when someone calls you wanting a survey, what do you give them, and what do you call it?
Generally most new clients go for the lowest price or fastest service.?ÿ
Some new clients don't like to shop around, so they'll just go with whatever you tell them if it doesn't seem too outrageous to them.?ÿ
Only repeat clients and referrals are there because of you, your product, and your reputation.
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So when someone calls you wanting a survey, what do you give them, and what do you call it?
I tell them we won't be the cheapest and if they are looking for the cheapest i can provide them appropriate contact info and save us each time and effort.?ÿ If we move past that i tell them i can provide a lump sum contract (for topo) or an hourly contract (boundary work) with an initial cost estimate.?ÿ Sometimes I can also use a lump sum boundary contract if I have completed sufficient work in the area to know what I am up against. The key is a clearly outlined scope of the project which identifies which monuments we expect to find.
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So when someone calls you wanting a survey, what do you give them, and what do you call it?
I tell them we won't be the cheapest and if they are looking for the cheapest i can provide them appropriate contact info and save us each time and effort.?ÿ If we move past that i tell them i can provide a lump sum contract (for topo) or an hourly contract (boundary work) with an initial cost estimate.?ÿ Sometimes I can also use a lump sum boundary contract if I have completed sufficient work in the area to know what I am up against. The key is a clearly outlined scope of the project which identifies which monuments we expect to find.
So you give them a price?
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So when someone calls you wanting a survey, what do you give them, and what do you call it?
I tell them we won't be the cheapest and if they are looking for the cheapest i can provide them appropriate contact info and save us each time and effort.?ÿ If we move past that i tell them i can provide a lump sum contract (for topo) or an hourly contract (boundary work) with an initial cost estimate.?ÿ Sometimes I can also use a lump sum boundary contract if I have completed sufficient work in the area to know what I am up against. The key is a clearly outlined scope of the project which identifies which monuments we expect to find.
If you tell them that you're not the cheapest and give them a name of someone cheaper, why would they want to hire you, assuming that they don't know of you prior and weren't referred to you by a friend?
If you're also telling them that you're better, and that's why you're not the cheapest, then you may be crossing the line into unethical conduct.
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With the exception of Brooks Act work, I really don't know how you think cost could be removed from the equation. Providing someone with an estimate/bid up front is not going away. The problem isn't that we're asked to provide an estimate or a bid up front, the problem is that boundary surveying is generally considered to have a low value in our society. That is NOT the result of bidding or estimating.
You would ask for an estimate from an architect to design your house, from a doctor to perform a boob job, from an accountant to handle your finances...and from a contractor and/or plumber to work on your house. In all of those cases you would perhaps get several estimates and weigh cost against reputation. Neither cut-rate boob jobs or cut-rate plumbing are much of a bargain. Our problem as surveyors is that the value of our services is often perceived as lower than both many professions AND skilled trades. You very well may strictly price shop for snow removal, routine landscaping, tree removal, oil changes, and house painting. As noted above, the public simply cannot distinguish among different levels of survey "quality" and only rarely would they care to do so anyway.
In the rare cases where they do care to discriminate based on quality, they seem happy to pay through the nose (like in?ÿsome of the boundary cases that JBStahl shares). But my understanding is that this is often well after the lawyers have entered the room, so surveying starts to look cheap!
?ÿ
Fortunately you are wrong.?ÿ Obviously other areas of the USA run by a different set of rules than around this area. For the majority of our projects over the last 15 years we are selected based on a quality based system.?ÿ Cost is not even discussed, nor can it be, until the consultant is chosen.?ÿ There are RFPs coming out by the dozens on a daily basis that follow this exact criteria.
I wish I were wrong. I would venture that you are doing almost exclusively government work, and almost exclusively on public works projects. If that's true, then the RFPs should be in compliance with the Brooks Act (as I mentioned at the beginning of my earlier post), and QBS rules the day. There's a whole other world of work out there, though, especially boundary surveying for private clients, where RFPs for QBS would be exceedingly rare.
There's a whole other world of work out there, though, especially boundary surveying for private clients, where RFPs for QBS would be exceedingly rare.
I am very aware of that and lived in that world for about 15 years or so early in my career while watching the companies i worked for struggle.?ÿ A business model with a race to the bottom is not a good business model.?ÿ ?ÿEver since I 'found the light' I have been making considerable more money with considerably less headaches.
