In this area I can expect about 1/2 of the surveyors to be dead or retired in 10 years.?ÿ The other half will be dead or retired in the following 10 years.?ÿ It will leave myself and a couple others who are now in our 40's for an area with several dozen surveyors.?ÿ I will be 62 in 20 years (scary thought) and I will be eyeing retirement.
We do some minor engineering and we are watching the contractors' fees skyrocket.?ÿ Sewer is being installed everywhere and they are pushing towards pumps...?ÿ They buy the E-One in bulk for somewhere between 4-5k.?ÿ It retails for 7,500 and they sell it for 15k.?ÿ Now that is business savvy.?ÿ Do we have anything in our profession with a greater than 100% markup??ÿ Stakes??ÿ We have clients with experience of underpriced surveys who are shocked when they receive a proposal for a survey at something closer to the right fee.?ÿ They then find someone who will do "the same" for less.?ÿ You can get to the destination in a Yugo so why pay for the Rolls??ÿ Unfortunately, they don't see the rust under the Yugo and the liability is really on the cost effective surveyor...?ÿ And that is even if a mistake comes back to bite them.
What we really need is to understand the value of the services we provide.?ÿ We need to charge rates to provide quality services.?ÿ Nothing like underbidding then cutting corners...?ÿ then recording a survey that does not match the monuments or the plans in the area.
?ÿ
I have no clue what an E-One is but I will tell you that almost every single time I truly try to price it as it really costs I loose. What I am referring to is the hourly rates, IF I truly use the hourly rates to determine a fee to perform a job I can all but guarantee I will be roundly ignored. Hourly rates don't mean squat and I wish all surveyors would stop the BS with the hourly rate nonsense because they do not use them and never will. Oh they will tell you that their rates are $150 hour but that is bull and when you call them on it they will put a bunch of qualifiers and caveats for their use.
As for the number of surveyors??????it is probably the same thing around here where half are in their mid-70??s or older and still going strong and they are still the low-price leaders offering up cut-rate fee??s. They have been surveying for so long that they have a competitive advantage over most everyone else and they offer up cut-rate prices and the only way you will ever ??beat them? is to go low. That is a fact and for all you people out there saying otherwise you are living a charmed life.
Incidentally I will be 62 in 10 years and I just hope to be able to get there in one piece with my sanity intact. I still would never recommend surveying to anyone, not even my worst enemy (if I had one). I still discourage everyone from pursuing surveying as a career and will continue to do so as long as entry level pay for a cart pusher at Wal-Mart makes more money than an entry level surveying position.
I do not ever see surveyors ever valuing the service they provide & quite the contrary, and if you go to the Samgog.org message board you can read a post lamenting the higher fees because of some mythical shortage.
I wish I could live in a time and place where surveyors had high fees and valued their service, but I do not, and I doubt I will ever see it.
I say a shortage does not exist, but one is desperately needed to bring value to a profession that does not value itself.
?ÿ
I've been at this for almost 40 years, after getting quite a late start due to chronic indecisiveness in my youth - and now I can truly say I'm sorry I finally decided on surveying as a lifestyle.?ÿ It's -1 outside with the wind, and my creaky old fat ass is staying right in here by the fire.
The low-pay-lament has been going on as long as I've been at it, and everybody talks tough until there's a correction in the markets, then the fees drop back to keep the lights on, and catch up takes years.
I too would never recommend surveying as a career path - unless it's gov't service with a guaranteed pension plan - and you want to be part of a bureaucracy...
SS
P.S. - here's my retirement plan:
An E One is a sewer pump.?ÿ They list for 7,500 and the contractors charge 15k plus installation.?ÿ?ÿ
We buy stakes for about 0.70-0.90 and charge 2.00 plus installation.?ÿ If I had a project with 1,000 stakes, then we'd be talking apples and apples.?ÿ Though it takes them an hour to set a pump and how many days would it take for 1000 stakes?
I foresee the shortage of surveyors.?ÿ We need to change the fees to pay the kids to attract the talent.?ÿ I completely agree that I would not recommend surveying with the current downward salary trend.?ÿ We will continue to get the less educated and therefore we will continue to erode at the appearance of the profession.
Take a look at the workshops/classes offered in at the Pennsylvania conference in January. A mixture of many topics, including business principles, etc.?ÿ
John,
You going to the conference in Hershey??ÿ I'll probably be there.?ÿ
John - that is all well and good, but can you accept PDH's for the business (marketing) topics??ÿ My understanding was that you can't.?ÿ This is from 4.5(b) of the "Continuing Education Provisions":
"Continuing professional competency obtained by a licensee should maintain, improve or expand skills and knowledge obtained prior
to initial licensure, including law and ethics applicable to the profession, or develop new and relevant skills and knowledge. No credit shall be given for a course in practice building or office management."
That last sentence sure makes it sound like you can't, and in PA you won't know that you don't have valid CE's until you get audited and they tell you they don't count.?ÿ I personally think business management should be included as acceptable CE's.
My main concern when computing my fee is the amount for liability.
That can not be done in quoting an hourly fee.
Well......it can if you are true to the hourly fee but I have never met anyone who was. I mean if the liability for the job does not agree with hourly fee then you need to raise the rate. If your rates are done properly they should have all of your associated costs of doing business (direct employee costs, insurance, equipment, incidentals such as gas and repairs, rent, utilities, etc. etc.) plus a profit margin built into them. But people don't use the rates they claim to have and it is just a talking point to allow them to puff out their chest.?ÿ
In the words of a wealthy client:?ÿ You cannot get rich working hourly.
I don't need to be rich, I want to be comfortable.
??Among the rich you will never find a really generous man even by accident. They may give their money away, but they will never give themselves away; they are egotistic, secretive, dry as old bones. To be smart enough to get all that money you must be dull enough to want it.??ÿ
???ÿG.K. Chesterton
In the words of a wealthy client:?ÿ You cannot get rich working hourly.
I don't need to be rich, I want to be comfortable.
In?ÿpractice I do not charge by the hour but I do have an hourly component to it. I mean if I price something at $7500 I have factored in the research, travel, field work, drafting and other factors like recording fees. However if situations arise once in the field that go beyond the original scope expectations then I am going to charge more or I stop right there and take my payment and mosey on down the road.
