@aliquot?ÿ
"It's not just the "American Way". Almost every devopled country requires the equivalent of a U.S. Bachelors degree to be a boundary surveyor."
I wonder when the American way became copying what others do instead of being better.
hmm joining the crowd or lead,,, that is the question.
"Leading" by lowering the bar.
USA USA
there isn't enough time in a Bachelors program to teach all the background knowledge, and the survey specific knowledge needed to make good "proffesional" surveyors out of what our high-schools and time on a field crew are molding.?ÿ
Give me a physics, math, history, or even Germanic literature major over a surveyor trained by a school of engineering any day.?ÿ
You understand!
I don't understand at all. So are you saying that you don't want someone that is specifically educated in boundary law, real estate law, subdivisions, geodesy, map projections, contract law, technical writing,?ÿ etc.??ÿ?ÿ
Give me a physics, math, history, or even Germanic literature major over a surveyor trained by a school of engineering any day.?ÿ
I've been a Schiller for getting more Germanic Lit grads in the profession for decades now
Time out!
This is not FaceBook or Twitter. It's supposed to be a forum of professionals, not twits. As in a boundary survey, where one is supposed to gather all the available evidence, please gather all the points in and in the history of an opinion posted BEFORE sniping on one phrase or sentence within a poster's comment!
If a Surveyor's Forum descends to that level, there is no point in having surveyorconnect.com. Sniping ensures an end to any meaningful discussion and only cements polarization. Seek to understand the whole of someone's argument before trying to play amateur cross-ex attorney.
A famous carpenter's rule is "measure twice - cut once."
A good rule for this forum would be "read twice - consider - write once."
JAC
@dave-karoly It has been years ago, but I read an article about the system in Sweden which has free tuition.?ÿ The percentage of students still borrowing (living expenses) was commiserate with the U.S. rate of borrowing although total amount was about 2/3rds of what U.S. students borrowed.?ÿ That was at least a decade ago, so numbers may have changed.?ÿ Still not quite the level of "free" education a lot of folks are talking about with the current student loan forgiveness talks.
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of drawing from other models, but some of these "better" models people suggest are also the ones that have made the decision for students by the time they are finishing up high school (some even in grade school) as to if they are even allowed to pursue a college degree.?ÿ Whereas in the U.S., there is a higher ed opportunity for basically anyone who chooses to try - it will cost them money to do so.
While every student won't get into an ivy league school, they can still get into debt at the regional university or even at the community college before either failing out or deciding for themselves that college isn't for them.?ÿ But a small number may find a passion for a subject and apply themselves more than they did in high school.?ÿ I'm not sure I would want to have a system that limits people before they have a chance to try.
What is the middle ground?
The schools now have no skin in the game, they often put out graduates with unmarketable degrees and leave them with crushing debt.?ÿ
Federal loans from the government straight to the college coffers, what could possibly go wrong with that system.?ÿ
There is over a trillion in endowments, that could clear up much of the debt, and imagine how things would change it those were used.?ÿ
Generally speaking, ABET accredited engineering/geomatics program lean much heavier on math than law.?ÿ Once the accreditation is created, it takes two or more years and a great deal of extra work to make changes to the courses offered in the program so as to not lose the coveted distinction.?ÿ I assume that Aliquot has noticed that many colleges double dip on engineering courses and pump out future PLSs that are much more focused on mathematical harmony than finding the best available evidence.?ÿ One ABET program I attended required calc I, calc II, calc III, and matrix algebra to earn a degree while only a half semester of boundary law and a single real estate law class was required.?ÿ I'm aware of survey/geomatics programs that include more law, but I've yet to see one that clearly prioritizes law over mathematics.?ÿ
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@murphy yep. I love math, and considered it as a proffesion, but it's not what land surveyors need to learn more of to be a good land surveyor.
there isn't enough time in a Bachelors program to teach all the background knowledge, and the survey specific knowledge needed to make good "proffesional" surveyors out of what our high-schools and time on a field crew are molding.?ÿ
Give me a physics, math, history, or even Germanic literature major over a surveyor trained by a school of engineering any day.?ÿ
You understand!
I don't understand at all. So are you saying that you don't want someone that is specifically educated in boundary law, real estate law, subdivisions, geodesy, map projections, contract law, technical writing,?ÿ etc.??ÿ?ÿ
Writing is something that other degrees will do a better job of teaching (except engineering) and conteact law I could care less. A surveyor in business for themselves should learn contract law, and they should have opportunities to learn it, but it shouldn't be a requirement.?ÿ
Real estate law? Real estate law classes devote 20 minutes of lecture to boundaries and title.?ÿ
The other things of course, that's why we need the masters programs.?ÿ
@aliquot?ÿ
"It's not just the "American Way". Almost every devopled country requires the equivalent of a U.S. Bachelors degree to be a boundary surveyor."
I wonder when the American way became copying what others do instead of being better.
hmm joining the crowd or lead,,, that is the question.
I think one problem we have is refusing to copy others. We have endless political debate about issues as if we were alone in the world, and there aren't other countries that have had the same debates and chosen a course of action that we could learn from.
The obvious truth is that we do some things better and some things are done better by others.?ÿ
One ABET program I attended required calc I, calc II, calc III, and matrix algebra to earn a degree while only a half semester of boundary law and a single real estate law class was required.?ÿ I'm aware of survey/geomatics programs that include more law, but I've yet to see one that clearly prioritizes law over mathematics.?ÿ
The problem seems to be that they are trying to fill out the overall 4 years worth of credit requirements without hiring staff to teach in a degree program with a small enrollment.?ÿ
Maryland's Department of Licensing has a "Joint Professional Design Group" that includes the chairs of the State Board of Architects, State Board for Professional Engineers, State Board for Professional Land Surveyors, State Board of Examiners of Landscape Architects.?ÿ I'd love to see a bachelors program in land surveying where the student in these degree tracks are allowed to take electives without prerequisite in these same degree programs,
For example , If the University of Maryland had a four year survey program, the following classes would be available to students majoring in surveying:
- URSP118 Selected Topics in Urban Planning (3 Credits)
- ARCH458 Selected Topics in Urban Design (3 Credits)
- ARCH460 Site Analysis and Design (3 Credits)
- ARCH467 Integrated Project Delivery (3 Credits)
- LARC420 Professional Practice (3 Credits) - An introduction to and comparative study of the professional concerns of design firms. Focus on planning, legal, ethical, marketing and management considerations of interdisciplinary practices.
- ENCE320 Introduction to Project Management (3 Credits)
- ENCE421 Legal Aspects of Architectural and Engineering Practice (3 Credits)
- ENCE422 Project Cost Accounting and Economics (3 Credits)
- ENCE423 Project Planning, Estimating & Scheduling (3 Credits)
- ENCE424 Communication for Project Managers (3 Credits)
We have an extremely qualified surveyor who was not allowed to sit for the test because when he got his engineering degree and later, he didn't have some required course surveying work. So he's taking the courses to qualify even though he was teaching same or similar courses for six years at the local college. That teaching experience didn't count.?ÿ
We tried to get him to sit for his test in a nearby state which probably would have accepted him, then get comity here. Others have done the same thing, but he decided to go this way.?ÿ
The requirement of four years of experience prior to being allowed to take the examination is there for a reason.
@mightymoe please demonstrate cause and effect. The States with experience only routes are struggling as much as the bachelors plus states. I know this for a fact because I got paid to gather and present the data.
There are three on-line programs in our region where you can get a degree without stepping on a campus. They all have options for experience and challenge credits. Every reputable firm I know of in this area is paying for some or all education required for licensure.
If you want a license you can get one. It requires choices and work. It should?ÿ
The requirement of four years of experience prior to being allowed to take the examination is there for a reason.
And you may be surprised to learn how arbitrary that reason was for deciding that requirement.?ÿ Its not necessarily a rationale reason.
The amusing thing to me is the length of time is irrelevant if the post-graduate mentoring is trash.?ÿ It's just another government sponsored rule in a long list of government sponsored rules that treat the symptom rather than the disease.
Do an analysis? No thanks, I'm simply looking at the small amount of new surveyors compared to the larger number of older surveyors and the paltry number of people available to hire.?ÿ
I'm close enough to the end of my work life to not be interested beyond noting the problem. I know of 4 locals who are retiring or trying to this year and then it will really hit the fan.?ÿ
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@bstrand Developing an effective, objective, and defensible process to determine minimum competence is no easy feat. That is especially true when you have to fight every step of the way. The best part is when practitioners refuse to help, then pick apart everything you do while failing to provide a single practical solution. The bright spot is the handful that care enough to put in the work and help.
Oh, and all this fun for 35% under market pay and benefits that get stripped by the executive branch. But I'm not bitter or anything..?ÿ